IRC Conference/logs/2009-09-13

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[2009-09-13 10:51:34] <@EfraimDF> I got an unexpected text today [2009-09-13 10:52:08] <@realazthat> ? [2009-09-13 10:52:13] <@EfraimDF> A shul had recently done renovations and had moved books from the room that was being renovated. When they moved them back, I found an 1885 Baer Slichot [2009-09-13 10:52:35] <@realazthat> heh [2009-09-13 10:52:38] <@realazthat> thats ironic [2009-09-13 10:52:57] <@realazthat> since I was inspired to do this project last year [2009-09-13 10:53:06] <@realazthat> during yomim noraim [2009-09-13 10:53:18] <@realazthat> due to the fact that each shul has its own nusach [2009-09-13 10:53:26] *** Aharon (n=chatzill@c-76-116-248-242.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) joined [2009-09-13 10:53:31] <@realazthat> Aharon:hi [2009-09-13 10:53:37] <@EfraimDF> They're also thinking about switching the machzor for one of its minyanim. I want to see if I can convince them to help us [2009-09-13 10:53:44] <@realazthat> EfraimDF: [10:52] <@EfraimDF> A shul had recently done renovations and had moved books from the room that was being renovated. When they moved them back, I found an 1885 Baer Slichot [2009-09-13 10:53:44] <@realazthat> [10:52] <@realazthat> heh [2009-09-13 10:53:44] <@realazthat> [10:52] <@realazthat> thats ironic [2009-09-13 10:53:44] <@realazthat> [10:52] <@realazthat> since I was inspired to do this project last year [2009-09-13 10:53:44] <@realazthat> [10:53] <@realazthat> during yomim noraim [2009-09-13 10:53:44] <@realazthat> [10:53] <@realazthat> due to the fact that each shul has its own nusach [2009-09-13 10:53:44] <@realazthat> [10:53] *** Aharon (n=chatzill@c-76-116-248-242.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) joined [2009-09-13 10:53:47] <@realazthat> er [2009-09-13 10:53:48] <@realazthat> woops [2009-09-13 10:53:55] <@EfraimDF> It's a long shot, but it's worth a try :-) [2009-09-13 10:54:00] <@realazthat> EfraimDF: set the topic? [2009-09-13 10:54:07] <@realazthat> yup [2009-09-13 10:54:09] *** EfraimDF changed topic to Open Siddur open chat [2009-09-13 10:54:24]  nice! [2009-09-13 10:54:39] <@EfraimDF> They're going to be exploring the issue in October [2009-09-13 10:54:48]  R. Elie Kaunfer's dissertation is on jewish liturgy [2009-09-13 10:54:58] <@EfraimDF> I'm going to find out what their meeting timeline is, and see if I can sneak in :-) [2009-09-13 10:55:18] <@realazthat> ;) [2009-09-13 10:55:25]  which shul is that? [2009-09-13 10:55:37]  i now live three blocks away from azriel [2009-09-13 10:55:43] <@realazthat> heh [2009-09-13 10:55:46] <@realazthat> thats great [2009-09-13 10:55:48] <@EfraimDF> Temple Beth Shalom of Cambridge (aka Tremont Street Shul) [2009-09-13 10:58:04] <@EfraimDF> It's a long shot because so much work is required to get it to happen. [2009-09-13 10:58:16] <@EfraimDF> It also happens to be their best option. [2009-09-13 10:58:29] <@realazthat> what exactly do they want? [2009-09-13 10:59:00] <@EfraimDF> The traditional-egalitarian minyan that currently uses the (horrible) Harlow machzor wants to switch to something else. [2009-09-13 10:59:24] <@EfraimDF> I don't know if they *know* what they want. There really are no good options, though. [2009-09-13 11:00:54] <@realazthat> looks a bit empty today [2009-09-13 11:01:25] <@EfraimDF> I don't know if we got a Facebook inbox message out... did we? [2009-09-13 11:04:07] <@realazthat> the current development status of OSNAT [2009-09-13 11:04:32] <@realazthat> saving back to the database needs to be implemented [2009-09-13 11:04:33] <@EfraimDF> go ahead with that -- then, we'll talk about orientation materials and the volunteer manager position [2009-09-13 11:05:21] <@realazthat> we are also working on perfecting the virtual keyboard [2009-09-13 11:06:22] <@EfraimDF> do we have a list of smaller things we need to get done before it can be released? [2009-09-13 11:07:11]  i should make a checklist of all the things we need to do to announce the live chat properly [2009-09-13 11:07:50] <@realazthat> EfraimDF: login, saving back to the db [2009-09-13 11:07:59] <@realazthat> the keyboard is a convenience [2009-09-13 11:08:02] <@EfraimDF> Aharon: typically, I do 3 annoucements on ML - 2 weeks, 1 week and 1 day before. We should also have a Facebook group and send FB email to everyone in the group [2009-09-13 11:08:39]  1. make group event, 2. invite group members, 3. make a group announcement, 4. announce on twitter, 5. announce w/sticky on opensiddur.net and jewishliturgy wiki [2009-09-13 11:09:13] <@realazthat> Aharon: what do you mean by "sticky"? [2009-09-13 11:09:23] <@EfraimDF> realazthat: also, correct visualization issues in the scan images [2009-09-13 11:09:51] <@EfraimDF> realazthat: they should not be distorted to the viewport's aspect ratio [2009-09-13 11:10:00]  a sticky is when a post "sticks" rather than gets "bumped" [2009-09-13 11:10:54]  i.e., newer posts take its place at the top of a list of posts [2009-09-13 11:11:17] <@realazthat> EfraimDF: indeed [2009-09-13 11:11:33] <@realazthat> EfraimDF: the first is relatively minor [2009-09-13 11:11:52] <@realazthat> we could use a CSS expert [2009-09-13 11:12:02] <@EfraimDF> This is more than a CSS issue [2009-09-13 11:12:07] <@realazthat> many things in the site are left "unpainted" [2009-09-13 11:12:17] <@EfraimDF> It's a basic UI issue. [2009-09-13 11:12:33] <@realazthat> heh [2009-09-13 11:12:34] <@realazthat> I moved on [2009-09-13 11:13:00] <@realazthat> the distortion is lots of math [2009-09-13 11:13:09] <@realazthat> that needs to be worked on [2009-09-13 11:13:47] <@realazthat> a CSS dev would be able to fix up the keyboard layout ( if we stick with the current format ) [2009-09-13 11:13:52] <@realazthat> etc. [2009-09-13 11:13:59] <@realazthat> the size of the textarea [2009-09-13 11:14:40] <@realazthat> Aharon: you can take a look at the demo [2009-09-13 11:15:13] <@realazthat> hold for link [2009-09-13 11:15:56] <@EfraimDF> First step is -- what are we missing in basic functionality: (1) user management/login (2) zoomport needs work (3) license chooser (4) bibliographic manager (5) scan upload? (6) save to db (7) load from db [2009-09-13 11:16:03] <@EfraimDF> did I miss anything? [2009-09-13 11:16:37] <@EfraimDF> (something in the VK looks like it reverted) [2009-09-13 11:16:44]  i'll take a look. anything new since last Thursday? [2009-09-13 11:16:57] <@EfraimDF> it's not showing vowels again... [2009-09-13 11:17:30] <@EfraimDF> ouch -- the display text and the key result are reversed! [2009-09-13 11:17:41]  last i looked, the vowels were being made with the letter Bet [2009-09-13 11:17:48] <@realazthat> Aharon: not since thursday [2009-09-13 11:18:06]  oh, o [2009-09-13 11:18:12]  ok [2009-09-13 11:18:47]  just learned something about FB group events [2009-09-13 11:18:50] <@realazthat> it might be something I did to support descriptions [2009-09-13 11:19:02] *** qwebirc6809 (i=d80f3e0b@gateway/web/freenode/x-hvjldlluoldkqywu) joined [2009-09-13 11:19:14] *** qwebirc6809 quit (Client Quit) [2009-09-13 11:19:22]  while the announcement of the event will show up on group member's walls, they don't get an automatic invite [2009-09-13 11:19:59] <@realazthat> you can invite them all manually ;) [2009-09-13 11:20:00] <@EfraimDF> oh -- last time, you sent something to everyone's inbox [2009-09-13 11:20:00] <@realazthat> heh [2009-09-13 11:20:12]  so i just invited everyone in the open siddur FB group to the chat [2009-09-13 11:20:19] <@EfraimDF> a bit late :-) [2009-09-13 11:20:25] <Aharon> for 11:30 [2009-09-13 11:20:40] <Aharon> i know [2009-09-13 11:20:52] <Aharon> this is my fault [2009-09-13 11:21:18] *** ItsEfraimTesting (i=62d86f4f@gateway/web/freenode/x-obwwkjitvvhourre) joined [2009-09-13 11:21:24] *** ItsEfraimTesting quit (Client Quit) [2009-09-13 11:21:48] <@EfraimDF> ok -- I just saw someone drop in and out -- so I tried a test of the freenode client -- it works [2009-09-13 11:21:58] <@EfraimDF> anyway... [2009-09-13 11:22:26] <@EfraimDF> Are there any small projects for OSNAT that could be broken up? [2009-09-13 11:22:32] <@EfraimDF> and completed on their own? [2009-09-13 11:22:34] <@realazthat> CSS [2009-09-13 11:22:36] *** ilan_ (i=546c56a7@gateway/web/freenode/x-tlodniuzsmcholvp) joined [2009-09-13 11:22:40] <@EfraimDF> hi [2009-09-13 11:22:41] <@realazthat> hi [2009-09-13 11:22:47] <Aharon> since starting Yeshivat Hadar last week, i have spent the least amount of time at my computer i can remember for the last ten years... [2009-09-13 11:22:55] <@realazthat> lol [2009-09-13 11:23:09] <ilan_> I did, since I was on vacation.... [2009-09-13 11:23:22] <Aharon> hi ilan! [2009-09-13 11:23:29] <ilan_> Hi! [2009-09-13 11:24:00] <ilan_> I figured I'd show up, even though I have nothing new since last time. [2009-09-13 11:24:17] <Aharon> Ilan Cohen, meet Azriel who is working on the transcription interface (and other front end work). Also here is our lead developer, Efraim Feinstein who is repsonsible for all the backend code and the database [2009-09-13 11:24:39] <@EfraimDF> and looking for someone to hand some of that over to :-) [2009-09-13 11:25:05] <ilan_> We've met. I need help with the learning curve/a specific task to start off with. [2009-09-13 11:25:15] <@EfraimDF> Good segue! [2009-09-13 11:25:23] <@realazthat> ilan_: hi [2009-09-13 11:25:38] <@EfraimDF> Because the question I was going to ask is -- [2009-09-13 11:25:50] <@EfraimDF> What kind of introductory materials would be helpful to you to start hacking? [2009-09-13 11:25:58] <@realazthat> ilan_: can you remind me of what languages you have experience with? [2009-09-13 11:26:16] <@EfraimDF> (and you're probably a good person to help with this -- I'm familiar with the code base, so, it's all obvious to me ;-) ) [2009-09-13 11:26:22] <ilan_> My forte is with HTML/CSS/JS. [2009-09-13 11:26:36] <@EfraimDF> That's Azriel's department, mostly [2009-09-13 11:26:43] <ilan_> I also work in SQL, PHP, and some other client-side languages. [2009-09-13 11:26:55] <ilan_> oops, server-side [2009-09-13 11:27:06] <@realazthat> any Java? [2009-09-13 11:27:35] <ilan_> Yeah, but not for 3+ years. [2009-09-13 11:27:38] <@realazthat> ok [2009-09-13 11:27:40] <@EfraimDF> ilan_: have you seen the dev version of the transcription interface? [2009-09-13 11:27:48] <@realazthat> thats fine [2009-09-13 11:28:14] <@realazthat> we can probably use all of your skills ;) [2009-09-13 11:28:35] <@realazthat> http://shell.jewishliturgy.org/dump/webapp/Transcription.html [2009-09-13 11:28:44] <@realazthat> its a bit raw [2009-09-13 11:29:31] <@realazthat> the current architecture is as follows: [2009-09-13 11:30:02] <@realazthat> the application is mainly done in Java [2009-09-13 11:30:09] <@realazthat> Google Web Toolkit compiles it to Javascript [2009-09-13 11:30:12] <ilan_> Using the gwt? [2009-09-13 11:30:15] <@realazthat> yes [2009-09-13 11:30:25] <@realazthat> CSS styles the html [2009-09-13 11:30:27] <ilan_> Right. The irony is that I'm better with JS. [2009-09-13 11:30:32] <@realazthat> thats fine [2009-09-13 11:30:39] <@realazthat> GWT allows interfacing with JS easily [2009-09-13 11:30:50] <@realazthat> we use 3 or 4 JS libraries [2009-09-13 11:30:56] <ilan_> Oh? [2009-09-13 11:31:00] <@realazthat> and delegate some ugly code to JS [2009-09-13 11:31:30] <@realazthat> xregexp for normalizing regular expression implementations ( broken between browsers ) [2009-09-13 11:31:55] <@realazthat> Sarissa for providing a cross-browser api for XML/XPath/XSLT [2009-09-13 11:31:56] <ilan_> And what's the server-side? [2009-09-13 11:32:16] <@realazthat> right now, nothing except an XML database, that we are learning to use [2009-09-13 11:32:26] <@realazthat> what will be on the server side [2009-09-13 11:32:31] <@realazthat> at least in the current vision [2009-09-13 11:32:42] <@realazthat> is an OpenId authentication system [2009-09-13 11:32:42] <ilan_> I'm not quite clear on that - how does the JS interact with the server? [2009-09-13 11:32:46] <@realazthat> ok [2009-09-13 11:32:56] <@realazthat> the JS uses xmlhttprequest [2009-09-13 11:33:06] <@realazthat> to ask the eXist database for information [2009-09-13 11:33:17] <@EfraimDF> The eXist database exposes an HTTP REST interface [2009-09-13 11:33:18] <@realazthat> the eXist database stores the siddur data [2009-09-13 11:33:34] <ilan_> Directly from JS to the DB? Never heard of that. [2009-09-13 11:33:37] <@EfraimDF> which can be used to execute stored queries on the data and return results as XML [2009-09-13 11:33:38] <ilan_> Oh. [2009-09-13 11:33:46] <@realazthat> its an HTTP interface [2009-09-13 11:33:53] <@realazthat> and an XML database [2009-09-13 11:34:02] <@realazthat> its new to all of us [2009-09-13 11:34:08] <ilan_> Got it now. Are we planning on putting something else in-between? [2009-09-13 11:34:16] <@EfraimDF> Not if we don't have to [2009-09-13 11:34:25] <@EfraimDF> The db can act as a platform for the web app [2009-09-13 11:34:39] <@EfraimDF> The "in between" part is a set of XQuery and XSLT based libraries [2009-09-13 11:34:42] <@realazthat> the current architecture is to authenticate with OpenId via php [2009-09-13 11:34:50] <@realazthat> we are looking at other solutions [2009-09-13 11:34:51] <@EfraimDF> which act as an API to the data [2009-09-13 11:35:06] *** elana (i=d80f3e0b@gateway/web/freenode/x-ylkmtxxmprmglqhx) joined [2009-09-13 11:35:10] <@EfraimDF> Hi elana [2009-09-13 11:35:13] *** elana quit (Client Quit) [2009-09-13 11:35:41] <@realazthat> the html also must be styled with CSS [2009-09-13 11:36:12] <ilan_> I have to run. Azriel - can we continue this offline? If you could send me the source code, so I can have a starting place, that would be great. [2009-09-13 11:36:21] <@EfraimDF> I think all the source is on svn [2009-09-13 11:36:23] <@EfraimDF> ? [2009-09-13 11:36:27] <@realazthat> the source code should be checked out from svn [2009-09-13 11:36:31] <@realazthat> hold for a link [2009-09-13 11:36:36] <ilan_> Ok. [2009-09-13 11:36:45] <@realazthat> http://code.google.com/p/jewishliturgy/source/checkout [2009-09-13 11:36:55] <ilan_> Thanks. [2009-09-13 11:36:57] <ilan_> Bye. [2009-09-13 11:37:00] <@realazthat> bye [2009-09-13 11:37:01] <@EfraimDF> (that's http with instructions on how to checkout, not direct to svn) [2009-09-13 11:37:02] <@EfraimDF> bye [2009-09-13 11:37:15] <@EfraimDF> also, if you have any questions, send email! [2009-09-13 11:37:33] <@EfraimDF> You don't get bonus points for toughing out figuring out the code [2009-09-13 11:37:39] <@realazthat> heh ;) [2009-09-13 11:37:40] <ilan_> Will do. just came back from vacation.  Things are slow. [2009-09-13 11:38:06] <@realazthat> ttyl [2009-09-13 11:38:54] <@EfraimDF> later... [2009-09-13 11:39:16] *** qwebirc91746 (i=458f74d7@gateway/web/freenode/x-ycyjnoehkbaotwsc) joined [2009-09-13 11:39:20] <@EfraimDF> hi [2009-09-13 11:39:32] <@EfraimDF> Use /nick to set your nickname [2009-09-13 11:40:06] <@EfraimDF> realazthat: Is that all you have to update us on OSNAT? [2009-09-13 11:42:26] <@EfraimDF> [2009-09-13 11:43:22] *** Efraim2 (i=62d86f4f@gateway/web/freenode/x-mhfizniriicqebez) joined [2009-09-13 11:43:28] <Efraim2> test [2009-09-13 11:43:59] <@EfraimDF> Aharon: you there? [2009-09-13 11:44:41] <@realazthat> yes [2009-09-13 11:45:18] <@EfraimDF> Next up: We have about 70+ people who signed up on the join-us form [2009-09-13 11:45:36] <Aharon> hineni [2009-09-13 11:45:38] <@EfraimDF> Most are not code developers (although there are some) [2009-09-13 11:46:03] <@EfraimDF> Some said they were interested in transcribing, writing original material, project publicity... [2009-09-13 11:46:24] <@EfraimDF> And some had on their contact permissions "allow a developer to contact me" [2009-09-13 11:46:40] <Aharon> for those who explicitly wanted to transcribe i wanted to invite them to transcribe. i held off until the new transcription interface was up but perhaps that was the wrong approach [2009-09-13 11:46:45] <@EfraimDF> Which gets us to the question of a volunteer manager (originally Aharon's idea) [2009-09-13 11:47:05] <@EfraimDF> someone to keep track of who's been contacted, responses, etc. [2009-09-13 11:47:36] <Aharon> actually, it's Elisheva's idea http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=720219 [2009-09-13 11:47:37] <@EfraimDF> It's a nontechnical position, but it needs someone who's at least familiar with where to send someone [2009-09-13 11:47:43] <@EfraimDF> ok... [2009-09-13 11:47:54] <Aharon> made a lot of sense to me [2009-09-13 11:48:06] <@EfraimDF> Do we have anyone who could fill that position? [2009-09-13 11:48:15] <@EfraimDF> We could certainly get project publicity people working. [2009-09-13 11:48:33] <@EfraimDF> Content gathering can certainly be done *before* all the tech is in place [2009-09-13 11:48:49] <@EfraimDF> We have a primitive transcription interface on the wiki [2009-09-13 11:49:13] <@EfraimDF> People can translate/write commentary on the wiki [2009-09-13 11:49:22] <@EfraimDF> It can't integrate yet, but it won't be lost [2009-09-13 11:49:47] <Aharon> the point is that there are things that can be done [2009-09-13 11:50:24] <@EfraimDF> Yes. We don't have to wait until everything is ready [2009-09-13 11:50:38] *** Efraim2 (i=62d86f4f@gateway/web/freenode/x-mhfizniriicqebez) left [2009-09-13 11:50:41] <Aharon> in different areas. i have an email i wrote to potential transcribers but i've been holding back from sending it until the new interface was up [2009-09-13 11:51:00] <Aharon> i'll go ahead and send that [2009-09-13 11:51:20] <@EfraimDF> Given real-life time constraints, it may take a while before we have something completely usable [2009-09-13 11:52:05] <Aharon> some people wanted to donate money [2009-09-13 11:52:17] <@EfraimDF> Do we have the mechanisms set up yet? [2009-09-13 11:52:32] <@realazthat> how do we accept money? [2009-09-13 11:53:25] <@realazthat> paypal? [2009-09-13 11:53:50] <Aharon> The Center for Jewish Culture and Creativity is providing "fiscal sponsorship". That means that they will accept donations for us and take a 5% cut. They are a 501(3)c org so they can do this [2009-09-13 11:54:05] <Aharon> online i recommended to Bob that we use Razoo [2009-09-13 11:54:07] <Aharon> http://www.razoo.com/p/faqs [2009-09-13 11:54:30] <Aharon> paypal and other online donation systems also want to take a cut of the donations [2009-09-13 11:54:54] <@realazthat> paypal is 2.2% + $0.30 [2009-09-13 11:55:20] <Aharon> Razoo is 0.0% + $0.0 [2009-09-13 11:55:41] <@realazthat> thats great ;) [2009-09-13 11:55:56] <@realazthat> what exactly would the money be used for? [2009-09-13 11:55:56] <@EfraimDF> What would it take to get the mechanisms set up so we can start linking? [2009-09-13 11:56:07] <@EfraimDF> Paying for the VPS, for one thing :-) [2009-09-13 11:56:11] <Aharon> exactly [2009-09-13 11:56:19] <Aharon> there are certain operational costs [2009-09-13 11:56:47] <@realazthat> right, but there will likely be more money than that [2009-09-13 11:56:54] <@EfraimDF> I wouldn't count on it :-) [2009-09-13 11:57:07] <@EfraimDF> Anyway, CJCC could hold it in an account until we need it [2009-09-13 11:57:09] <@realazthat> I've had people offer me money in person [2009-09-13 11:57:24] <Aharon> yes, me too [2009-09-13 11:58:43] <Aharon> if someone were to do that, i think it's best to be clear that they are not donating the money to the Open Siddur project per se, but that they are making a grant to you personally [2009-09-13 11:59:11] <@realazthat> they specified it was for the project [2009-09-13 11:59:56] <Aharon> best way for them is to make a check out to the Center for Jewish Culture and Creativity (http://www.jewishcreativity.org/) [2009-09-13 12:00:12] <Aharon> specifying the Open Siddur project [2009-09-13 12:00:30] <@EfraimDF> Going to CJCC's website, it's not obvious how to donate/donate to a specific project, and I don't think we're even listed as a sponsored project yet [2009-09-13 12:00:30] <Aharon> that way their donation is tax-deductible [2009-09-13 12:00:59] <@realazthat> razoo claims to be tax-deductible as well [2009-09-13 12:01:27] <Aharon> Razoo is great [2009-09-13 12:01:56] <@EfraimDF> Razoo uses the Network For Good system and absorbs the fees, so it is deductible [2009-09-13 12:02:27] <@EfraimDF> CJCC's giving page is still under construction [2009-09-13 12:02:55] <Aharon> Bob Goldfarb is interested in a mechanism linking online donations to razoo through his page [2009-09-13 12:03:01] <Aharon> doesn't know how to implement this [2009-09-13 12:04:40] <@EfraimDF> uh, follow the directions at http://www.razoo.com/p/non-profits [2009-09-13 12:06:42] <@EfraimDF> Doesn't look that complicated. It just looks like some paperwork [2009-09-13 12:08:08] <Aharon> i'll ask him how far he's gotten with that [2009-09-13 12:08:29] <@EfraimDF> Anyway, since there's basically nothing we can do about it on our own, other than bug BG, on to things we can change? [2009-09-13 12:08:51] <@EfraimDF> Do we have anyone who can take on the role of volunteer manager? [2009-09-13 12:09:39] <@realazthat> maybe someone on the survey [2009-09-13 12:11:03] <Aharon> in the corporate world this is sometimes called Human Capital Management [2009-09-13 12:11:45] <@EfraimDF> I meant any potential people to fill the role, not a title :-) [2009-09-13 12:12:35] <@EfraimDF> Have you met anyone in all your networking who might be good for it? [2009-09-13 12:16:19] <@realazthat> going through the survey, there seems to be alot of potential candidates [2009-09-13 12:17:15] <@EfraimDF> We could craft a well-written email to that list of people (BCC is your friend) and see if anyone bites [2009-09-13 12:18:09] <@realazthat> what would the job entail? [2009-09-13 12:18:39] <@EfraimDF> (1) Managing the join-us page [2009-09-13 12:19:07] <@EfraimDF> Sign people up for the discussion list when they ask for it (I've been doing that) [2009-09-13 12:19:38] <@EfraimDF> Respond with a personal email to people who have specific talents and try to open up a conversation as to how we can get them involved [2009-09-13 12:19:52] <@EfraimDF> If they need technical information, point them to who would know it [2009-09-13 12:20:31] <@EfraimDF> (2) Follow-up with potential volunteers [2009-09-13 12:20:52] <@EfraimDF> Keep in contact when someone says "I'll look at something in 2 weeks", eg [2009-09-13 12:21:18] <Aharon> i don't think we can expect someone to take this on all at once [2009-09-13 12:21:31] <Aharon> what we could do is apprentice someone into this [2009-09-13 12:21:54] <Aharon> right now we're dividing responsibility over these functions [2009-09-13 12:22:02] <Aharon> since we know the full picture [2009-09-13 12:22:40] <@EfraimDF> Having someone start off with some of it is better than having nobody doing anything at all. [2009-09-13 12:22:42] <Aharon> for someone coming into this who doesn't know the full picture, having responsibility for showing people potential roles to fill is daunting [2009-09-13 12:23:17] <Aharon> the first thing someone in that position should rightfully ask is: [2009-09-13 12:23:47] <Aharon> what specific tasks can i give to people offering certain skillsets [2009-09-13 12:24:24] <@EfraimDF> Some are obvious and have lower learning curves -- eg, generating publicity materials [2009-09-13 12:24:45] <@EfraimDF> The second part of this is lowering the learning curve to entry. [2009-09-13 12:25:17] <Aharon> the front end must be designed to lower that learning curve [2009-09-13 12:25:25] <Aharon> thus the bottleneck [2009-09-13 12:25:56] <@realazthat> the biggest thing that will bring contributors, is the trancription framework [2009-09-13 12:26:00] <Aharon> when you say publicity materials, i hear "print materials" [2009-09-13 12:26:01] <@realazthat> IMO [2009-09-13 12:26:17] <@EfraimDF> I'm including in publicity materials: [2009-09-13 12:26:30] <@EfraimDF> - organization of the wiki so it's easy to find information [2009-09-13 12:26:35] <Aharon> transcription will bring *certain* contributors -- contributors who want to transcribe [2009-09-13 12:26:54] <@EfraimDF> - emails to various groups that could have interested people (college hillels, synagogues, eg) [2009-09-13 12:27:36] <@EfraimDF> publicity != print [2009-09-13 12:28:28] <Aharon> hmmm.... sending emails to various interested groups. i've been doing that [2009-09-13 12:28:32] <@EfraimDF> For example, if I had a well-written email, I could probably send it out to a Hillel email list, 2 independent minyan lists, and a shul email list [2009-09-13 12:28:53] <Aharon> great so we'll draft something [2009-09-13 12:29:06] <@EfraimDF> that's why I was asking for it over the ML [2009-09-13 12:29:16] <@EfraimDF> and, for now, we could be requesting developers primarily [2009-09-13 12:29:37] <@EfraimDF> and send out a second round once the transcription interface is ready to go [2009-09-13 12:31:01] <@EfraimDF> also, if we had someone who wasn't intimately familiar with the project's inner workings going through the wiki and trying to find information, it could be helpful [2009-09-13 12:31:10] <Aharon> we have a letter that we sent to the Lookstein list (also posted at opensiddur.net) that we can modify for other potential developers [2009-09-13 12:32:26] <@EfraimDF> The audience is slightly different [2009-09-13 12:32:32] <Aharon> exactly [2009-09-13 12:32:44] <Aharon> we don't need to reinvent the wheel [2009-09-13 12:32:52] <Aharon> just tweak it [2009-09-13 12:32:56] <@EfraimDF> Want to take a try at editing it? [2009-09-13 12:33:07] <Aharon> will do [2009-09-13 12:34:28] <@EfraimDF> ok... [2009-09-13 12:34:40] <@EfraimDF> Would still be helpful to start apprenticing a vol mgr [2009-09-13 12:35:20] <@EfraimDF> The backend code, unfortunately, has the largest learning curve, and the parts with the smallest LC are the most boring [2009-09-13 12:36:36] <Aharon> in the meantime, i am contacting folks who sign up directly [2009-09-13 12:37:14] <@EfraimDF> If you contact anyone, leave a note in the spreadsheet [2009-09-13 12:37:15] <Aharon> mainly with a development status update tailored to their interests and skillsets [2009-09-13 12:37:24] <Aharon> which column? [2009-09-13 12:37:41] <Aharon> i see [2009-09-13 12:37:50] <@EfraimDF> it's obvious :-) [2009-09-13 12:38:01] <Aharon> but i never saw that column before? [2009-09-13 12:38:38] <Aharon> thanks for adding it [2009-09-13 12:38:59] <@realazthat> if you don't know, you can have the form notify by email for every update [2009-09-13 12:39:19] <Aharon> that would be great [2009-09-13 12:39:44] <Aharon> btw, i have to go soon Open Siddur colleagues [2009-09-13 12:39:56] <@EfraimDF> ok. And, happy birthday :-) [2009-09-13 12:40:17] <Aharon> thanks for your kind birthday wishes! [2009-09-13 12:40:21] <@realazthat> Aharon: we should meet sometime [2009-09-13 12:40:34] <Aharon> tuesday afternoon is my next free time [2009-09-13 12:40:38] <@realazthat> but not this week, very busy [2009-09-13 12:40:39] <@realazthat> heh [2009-09-13 12:40:43] <Aharon> oh ok [2009-09-13 12:41:01] <@EfraimDF> Next couple of weeks are going to be pretty busy for me too (given holidays) [2009-09-13 12:41:06] <@realazthat> I have alot of things to take care of before school gets underway [2009-09-13 12:41:07] <Aharon> happy new year for plebes! [2009-09-13 12:41:21] <@EfraimDF> So, I'll probably be a bit slower on coding progress [2009-09-13 12:41:30] <@EfraimDF> Although I had fun coding the grammar parser :-) [2009-09-13 12:42:17] <@realazthat> EfraimDF: what is the status of the rendering transforms? [2009-09-13 12:42:46] <@EfraimDF> Before we can do rendering transforms, we need to be able to dereference the URI shortcuts [2009-09-13 12:42:53] <@EfraimDF> eg, #range(a, b) [2009-09-13 12:43:07] <@EfraimDF> That's what the grammar parser is supposed to do -- [2009-09-13 12:43:37] <@EfraimDF> My next step is writing a follow-uri function that can pick up an arbitrary URI, given a context [2009-09-13 12:44:30] <@realazthat> how difficult do you think it would be to implement XML->XHTML? [2009-09-13 12:44:37] <@EfraimDF> After that, I plan to write some code to join multiple hierarchies into one (I have an earlier version of it in svn already, but it won't work completely) [2009-09-13 12:45:05] <@EfraimDF> After multi-hierarchy join comes splicing [2009-09-13 12:45:17] <@EfraimDF> After splicing, can do the XML->XHTML [2009-09-13 12:45:52] <@realazthat> splicing? [2009-09-13 12:46:09] <@EfraimDF> Removing unwanted text and adding out of line components [2009-09-13 12:46:24] <@realazthat> "unwanted text"? [2009-09-13 12:46:37] <@EfraimDF> Text that's turned off [2009-09-13 12:46:43] <@realazthat> hmm [2009-09-13 12:46:56] <@EfraimDF> eg, making a weekday siddur, turn off additions for Shabbat [2009-09-13 12:47:03] <@realazthat> funny, it can be turned off at multiple levels [2009-09-13 12:47:11] <@realazthat> you can put it in a class [2009-09-13 12:47:15] <@realazthat> that css can hide [2009-09-13 12:47:16] <@realazthat> heh [2009-09-13 12:47:29] <@EfraimDF> I'd rather simply remove it so the XML becomes easier to process [2009-09-13 12:47:32] <@realazthat> but thats not practicle [2009-09-13 12:47:42] <@realazthat> because syntax of instructions change [2009-09-13 12:47:43] <@EfraimDF> Otherwise, a parser has to parse the whole file [2009-09-13 12:48:06] <@EfraimDF> There's similar code in the POC [2009-09-13 12:49:45] <@EfraimDF> #range is going to be interesting if it crosses XML hierarchic boundaries [2009-09-13 12:49:55] <@EfraimDF> (first pass, I might just disallow it) [2009-09-13 12:50:03] <@realazthat> don't allow it [2009-09-13 12:50:46] <@EfraimDF> Most of the time, it won't be needed for our uses of #range [2009-09-13 12:51:34] <@EfraimDF> Question relevant for you: [2009-09-13 12:51:42] <@EfraimDF> How should be handle new user creation? [2009-09-13 12:51:50] <@EfraimDF> In the db, a new user can only be created by admin [2009-09-13 12:52:06] <@EfraimDF> I think we need a PHP hook with a secret dba account [2009-09-13 12:52:17] <@EfraimDF> dba=database administrator [2009-09-13 12:53:49] <@realazthat> that would work [2009-09-13 12:54:24] <@realazthat> hmm [2009-09-13 12:54:39] <@EfraimDF> Its job would be creating a new user's account and logging out [2009-09-13 12:54:40] <@realazthat> if we force OpenId then we don't have to store passwords [2009-09-13 12:54:56] <@realazthat> but that means we are tied to web [2009-09-13 12:54:57] <@EfraimDF> You still do for the internal account? [2009-09-13 12:55:22] <@realazthat> I meant if we implement it as the idea on the eXist ML [2009-09-13 12:55:39] <@realazthat> and somehow authenticate OpenId directly to the eXist REST interface [2009-09-13 12:55:57] <@EfraimDF> You authenticate to the db [2009-09-13 12:56:09] <@EfraimDF> Why would that tie you to the web? [2009-09-13 12:56:28] <@realazthat> OpenId requires that the user be redirected to the Providers web page [2009-09-13 12:56:44] <@realazthat> hmm [2009-09-13 12:56:44] <@EfraimDF> right -- but, local copies don't care about access restrictions [2009-09-13 12:56:50] <@realazthat> right [2009-09-13 12:57:08] <@realazthat> I mean that if there is a native application [2009-09-13 12:57:12] <@realazthat> that can edit our db [2009-09-13 12:57:18] <@realazthat> it might have problems [2009-09-13 12:57:23] <@EfraimDF> it still has to authenticate via online [2009-09-13 12:57:40] <@EfraimDF> (it also needs to access the db via HTTP) [2009-09-13 12:57:46] <@realazthat> yes [2009-09-13 12:57:56] <@realazthat> but it can't be redirected to the provider [2009-09-13 12:58:14] <@realazthat> it would have to recognize the authentication [2009-09-13 12:58:20] <@realazthat> and open up a browser window [2009-09-13 12:58:26] <@realazthat> to the provider page [2009-09-13 12:58:43] <@realazthat> which would then authenticate the user [2009-09-13 12:59:07] <@realazthat> and inform the server that the user is authenticated [2009-09-13 12:59:42] <@EfraimDF> You still need some kind of shadow user on the db, I think [2009-09-13 12:59:55] <@realazthat> right now yes [2009-09-13 12:59:57] <@EfraimDF> because otherwise, I don't see how the permissions mechanism works [2009-09-13 13:00:06] <@EfraimDF> I meant using the eXist ML way [2009-09-13 13:00:21] <@realazthat> using their way, it might work via the OpenId [2009-09-13 13:00:26] <@realazthat> that would be a user [2009-09-13 13:00:31] <@EfraimDF> Right, but who owns the file? [2009-09-13 13:00:41] <@realazthat> which? [2009-09-13 13:00:47] <@EfraimDF> one the user creates [2009-09-13 13:00:59] <@realazthat> the OpenId is a username [2009-09-13 13:02:06] <@EfraimDF> and the group? (I guess you could do user=group) [2009-09-13 13:04:17] <@realazthat> by default it would go into the general group [2009-09-13 13:05:41] <@EfraimDF> "users" [2009-09-13 13:06:03] <@EfraimDF> still need something to do group management [2009-09-13 13:06:11] <@EfraimDF> (also requires dba, I think) [2009-09-13 13:09:17] <@realazthat> I gotta run [2009-09-13 13:09:29] <@EfraimDF> ok bye