IRC Conference/logs/2010-07-11

 (12:52:37 PM) Meitnik [4aa3ee78@gateway/web/freenode/ip.74.163.238.120] entered the room. (12:53:57 PM) EfraimDF: hi (12:55:15 PM) Meitnik: I am hoping soon to start helping with transcribing and other related stuff... (12:55:32 PM) EfraimDF: cool (12:55:48 PM) EfraimDF: we've been changing some of the transcription rules to make them more consistent (12:58:12 PM) marcstober [ad4c9a19@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.76.154.25] entered the room. (12:59:21 PM) EfraimDF: hi (12:59:39 PM) Meitnik left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 252 seconds). (01:00:23 PM) marcstober: hi (01:00:39 PM) EfraimDF: Did the email responses help you with your questions? (01:01:17 PM) zeev [~user@2002:ae07:6219:0:61e:64ff:feeb:fe8c] entered the room. (01:01:19 PM) marcstober: yes they were very thoughtful thanks (01:01:30 PM) zeev: hello all (01:01:42 PM) EfraimDF: hi (01:02:10 PM) meitnik [4aa3ee78@gateway/web/freenode/ip.74.163.238.120] entered the room. (01:02:21 PM) EfraimDF: welcome back from ping timeout land (01:02:29 PM) meitnik: ahhh (01:03:13 PM) EfraimDF: Aharon might be in intercity transit (01:03:15 PM) meitnik: so how do i prevent the timeout? or do i? I have not used irc before. (01:03:26 PM) EfraimDF: I think it means your internet connection burped (01:03:32 PM) meitnik: ahhh (01:04:07 PM) EfraimDF: Anyway, we'll begin at 1:05 (ET) or so (01:04:42 PM) meitnik: ok (01:05:51 PM) EfraimDF: First, why doesn't everyone introduce themselves, as I don't think we all know each each other. I'm Efraim; I lead the tech side of the project (01:06:55 PM) marcstober: ok (01:06:57 PM) zeev: I'm Ze'ev Clementson, I've done some work on the Strongs dictionary. (01:07:31 PM) meitnik: a Andrew, a disabled jew who has graphic design and some programming background (01:08:28 PM) marcstober: i'm Marc, I am new to OpenSiddur but work as a software engineer and have been involved in a lot of Jewish orgs in different ways (01:09:08 PM) EfraimDF: first thing I wanted to discuss (and, yes, I actually wanted to discuss it even though it's on the agenda ;-) ) is what we can do to make it easier for new devs to get involved (01:09:39 PM) meitnik: i also am new to OpenSiddur and has a background in religious studies (01:10:10 PM) marcstober: well is there a simple how-to document somewhere (01:10:17 PM) EfraimDF: I know we have a huge instruction list (01:10:27 PM) meitnik: a note to all: typing is not easy for me, so i wont be typing much at times, sorry. (01:10:41 PM) marcstober: something that would just you up to a point where you can download and compile and run whatever code you have? (01:10:56 PM) EfraimDF: The instructions we have now are at http://wiki.jewishliturgy.org/Intro_to_hacking (01:11:29 PM) EfraimDF: Part of the issue with applications that have web-based interfaces is you need a server in order to run them (01:11:52 PM) EfraimDF: One possibility of fixing that would be providing a plug-in virtual machine appliance (01:12:11 PM) marcstober: ok that sounds even more complicated :) (01:12:24 PM) marcstober: is the web based stuff accessible on the web as a demo anywhere? (01:12:29 PM) EfraimDF: Some of it. (01:12:47 PM) EfraimDF: We have an old demo up (01:12:56 PM) EfraimDF: (which is linked from the wiki and opensiddur.org pages) (01:13:10 PM) zeev: EfraimDF: what do you mean by "a plug-in virtual machine appliance"? (01:13:10 PM) EfraimDF: But it really doesn't show much of anything that's going on behind the scenes (01:13:30 PM) EfraimDF: oh -- like a VMWare (or, prefarably, Virtualbox) image (01:13:44 PM) EfraimDF: where you basically get a running image of a server (01:14:00 PM) EfraimDF: Maintaining it would require a build system to build the image (01:14:25 PM) marcstober: is there a build system of some sort on one of your existing servers? (01:14:30 PM) EfraimDF: And, if anyone's interested, putting it together could be a good beginner's project that would be useful in the long tun (01:14:34 PM) EfraimDF: *run (01:15:00 PM) EfraimDF: Most of the code is interpreted, so, it has to be dumped on a running server (01:15:17 PM) EfraimDF: Initial configuration is a 20 step process, and I think that can be a turn-off (01:15:52 PM) marcstober: are people doing development on windows, linux, macs, what? just trying to get an understanding of it all (01:16:00 PM) EfraimDF: Actually, the fact that you couldn't find the intro document is a bit troubling to me from a documentation standpoint (01:16:37 PM) EfraimDF: I'm on Linux, I think Ze'ev is on a Mac; Azriel (who's juggling increased real life time demands) is on Windows, and Aharon is on Windows (01:16:46 PM) marcstober: it is probably just not be looking close enough. also there seems to be a bug in the CSS or something on Chrome that makes the page look funny but that's sort of off topic (01:16:58 PM) meitnik: am mac (01:17:15 PM) EfraimDF: @marcstober definitely worth a bug report. I havent done much testing on Chrome (01:17:41 PM) EfraimDF: I just started testing XForms interfaces on Chrome when Aharon reported that some things that worked fine on FF dont work on Chrome (01:18:54 PM) EfraimDF: The testing platforms I use now are: Firefox (Gecko), Chrome (Chromium), and Epiphany (Webkit); I don't know how to automate UI testing (01:19:04 PM) zeev: EfraimDF: just recently, the wiki pages have started displaying very slowly - has the server changed in the past few weeks? (01:19:34 PM) EfraimDF: The server's the same. It's shared space, so its speed is dependent on a lot beyond our control (01:19:42 PM) marcstober: ok, i am talking about the wiki, it's just small thing really (01:20:07 PM) EfraimDF: if you notice it, it's worth a bug report. Take a screen shot and paste it to the report so we know what you're talking about. (01:20:11 PM) marcstober: when you say 20 steps, do you mean the intro to hacking doc? (01:20:19 PM) EfraimDF: That and the mirroring the database doc (01:20:32 PM) meitnik: is there a test spec? (01:20:44 PM) EfraimDF: http://wiki.jewishliturgy.org/Mirroring_the_database (01:20:59 PM) EfraimDF: @meitnik For which aspect of the project (01:21:05 PM) marcstober: i am just thinking out loud here but it wonder if would be easier if there were actually 20 (or however many) numbered steps (01:21:27 PM) meitnik: the gui issuses your talking about (01:21:45 PM) EfraimDF: As I said, I know nothing about testing UI. (01:22:46 PM) meitnik: am interested in helping test gui and sending reports/screen shots (01:23:15 PM) EfraimDF: Most of the GUI development is taking place in my branch (01:23:18 PM) EfraimDF: on svn (01:23:53 PM) meitnik: can it be used well on safari? or do I need to use Chrome and FF? (01:23:54 PM) EfraimDF: (I branched it because I made a breaking change to the paths, which might kill the old demo) (01:24:06 PM) EfraimDF: Safari is webkit, so it should work the same as epiphany (01:24:16 PM) meitnik: Cool (01:24:24 PM) EfraimDF: but I haven't tried it specifically (01:24:44 PM) EfraimDF: I know Konqueror (the KDE browser) doesn't work (01:25:12 PM) EfraimDF: I have a temporary URL set up for what what I'm currently working on (01:26:03 PM) EfraimDF: http://efraims-lap.dyndns.org:8181/rest/db/code/apps/upload/wiki-import.xql (01:26:26 PM) EfraimDF: No guarantee it stays up 24/7, or that it doesn't break spontaneously while I test code. (01:27:13 PM) EfraimDF: I think the next major stage of the project is trying to populate the database (01:27:41 PM) EfraimDF: which means proofreading all the transcriptions on the wiki (01:28:02 PM) EfraimDF: and translating them to XML (01:28:26 PM) EfraimDF: The wiki importer is intended to be a guided way to do that using automated tools (01:29:48 PM) EfraimDF: (last I checked, it works for what it does, there are still some incomplete definitions in the transcription spec, so it's not fully functional yet) (01:30:11 PM) marcstober: brb (01:31:08 PM) EfraimDF: It is easiest to code when you have your own server to play with, which is why the mirroring the db process is key to getting new people in (I think) (01:31:35 PM) EfraimDF: Questions? comments? (01:33:01 PM) marcstober: is populating the database something you are considering a development task, does that involve having the database mirrored? (01:33:27 PM) EfraimDF: The major development issue in populating the db is making tools to do it (01:33:47 PM) EfraimDF: which means both getting data in and getting data out (01:34:00 PM) EfraimDF: what we have now are: (01:34:30 PM) EfraimDF: (1) sets of XSLT transforms that convert our XML format to XHTML. These are what's running on the old demo and can be run on the command line (01:34:56 PM) EfraimDF: These are in desperate need of: - a testing apparatus, - speed optimization (01:35:27 PM) EfraimDF: (2) some early coding (like the wiki importer) for getting data in (01:35:45 PM) EfraimDF: most of these are not yet coded. (01:36:37 PM) EfraimDF: (3) validation schemas for the XML. There are some issues there that can use work as well (01:36:53 PM) EfraimDF: What I think we need (in the big picture): (01:37:36 PM) EfraimDF: - a set of user interfaces for interested developers to help get data into the db. These would probably involve some knowledge of project conventions (01:37:43 PM) EfraimDF: - later, end-user interfaces (01:38:14 PM) EfraimDF: - an API so applications outside the project can use our data (REST/HTTP would be a good way to do this) (01:38:53 PM) EfraimDF: The end-user interfaces, for example, might work based on the API instead of working through the database directly (01:39:32 PM) marcstober: I am looking at http://wiki.jewishliturgy.org/Transcription - is that what you mean by populating the db? (01:40:13 PM) EfraimDF: the transcription process is the first step (01:40:31 PM) EfraimDF: that's where we get data from images into Unicode text (01:40:43 PM) EfraimDF: (most of our data starts on printed pages) (01:41:03 PM) EfraimDF: The data then gets checked against the printed text (proofreading) (01:41:31 PM) EfraimDF: After that, it goes into encoding, which involves converting our text format to structured XML (01:42:00 PM) EfraimDF: The encoding process is essentially the step where the db is populated (01:42:31 PM) EfraimDF: It doesn't take a developer to do transcription or proofreading -- all it takes is someone who can type and read carefully (01:43:35 PM) EfraimDF: (that doesn't mean developers can't do it -- I'd be happy if more people did, it's just not a required skill ) (01:44:51 PM) meitnik: where the hebrew letters are arranged for rapid input perhaps based on freq? (01:45:25 PM) EfraimDF: @meitnik I don't understand the question (01:46:13 PM) EfraimDF: http://wiki.jewishliturgy.org/w/images/6/6a/Open_Siddur_Project_Application_Overview.jpg is a large, potentially confusing flowchart that shows data flow (01:47:07 PM) marcstober: so to do the transcription and proofreading part, does a (non-developer) have to download code from SVN and/or mirror the database locally? (01:47:22 PM) EfraimDF: no (01:47:29 PM) EfraimDF: it all takes place on the wiki (01:47:35 PM) meitnik_ [4aa3ee78@gateway/web/freenode/ip.74.163.238.120] entered the room. (01:48:02 PM) meitnik_: hummm, did my last msg get sent? (01:48:22 PM) EfraimDF: Last thing I got was: (01:44:51 PM) meitnik: where the hebrew letters are arranged for rapid input perhaps based on freq? (01:48:34 PM) EfraimDF: My last response was that I don't understand the question (01:49:05 PM) meitnik_: I am looking for a way to enter rapidly hebrew letters/vowels via an array of button perhaps based on hebrew letter freq (01:49:09 PM) meitnik left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 252 seconds). (01:49:18 PM) EfraimDF: Oh, a virtual keyboard! (01:49:38 PM) marcstober: so for the transcription/proofreading process you do not at this point have any specialized software, you're just updating a wiki (01:49:49 PM) meitnik_: yes, but not like the ones you and others have wrestled over reagarding layout (01:50:09 PM) EfraimDF: @marcstober Right. Eventually, I'd like it to be directly to the db, but the system we have can work (01:50:34 PM) EfraimDF: @meitnik_ Is there anything like it we can use as a model? (01:51:57 PM) meitnik_: if you can send me a chart of hebrew letters and vowel markings sorted by freq than i can submit a gui (01:52:02 PM) marcstober: what do actual native hebrew speakers use? i know they are not typing trope (and rarely even vowels) but there must be something out there (01:53:03 PM) meitnik_: this would be fine tuned for OpenSiddur db of texts (01:53:07 PM) marcstober: i think i just need instructions in English how to type in Hebrew :) (01:53:24 PM) EfraimDF: Native Hebrew speakers use the SI-1452 layout. Vowel markings are there, but not easy to get to, and supported badly by some operating systems (cough, Windows) (01:53:51 PM) meitnik_: for me, am mostly mouse a lot ;-) (01:54:26 PM) EfraimDF: I usually recommend the Tiro keyboard, which uses SI-1452 for the consonants and has a better setup for vowels, and includes cantillation. Ze'ev wrote his own layout. (01:54:52 PM) EfraimDF: For letter frequency, we can probably get that information out of the Tanach (01:55:02 PM) EfraimDF: It should be roughly similar to the siddur (01:55:27 PM) meitnik_: do you have such a critter or a link to find such a table? (01:56:10 PM) EfraimDF: I don't have it now, but I do have a digitized Tanach text. (01:56:16 PM) zeev: Vowel frequency: http://std.dkuug.dk/jtc1/sc2/wg2/docs/n2844.pdf (01:56:28 PM) zeev: Character frequency: http://www.sttmedia.com/characterfrequency-hebrew (01:56:51 PM) meitnik_: can you create that table easily? am just wanting to work smart than hard with my fingers ;-) (01:57:26 PM) EfraimDF: I think Ze'ev just found the answers w/o anyone doing any work :-) (01:57:28 PM) meitnik_: great thank you! (01:58:18 PM) EfraimDF: You planning on writing it in Javascript? (01:58:46 PM) zeev: For Hebrew keyboard layouts, most people use either an Israeli keyboard based layout (e.g. - modern Israeli keyboards or Tiro) or a phonetic layout (that attempts to assign Hebrew keys to the phonetic equivalents on an English keyboard). (01:58:59 PM) marcstober: @efraim so is what you're looking for is code that converts transcribed material in the wiki to you xml format? (01:59:04 PM) zeev: The links on my bookmarklets page show the layouts: http://bc.tech.coop/DavidKeyboard.html (01:59:17 PM) meitnik_: am just going to submit an image what a hebrew entry button palette would be (01:59:26 PM) EfraimDF: @marcstober I almost have that done. (01:59:44 PM) EfraimDF: I think the next stage is actually interfaces to work with the db data (02:00:06 PM) EfraimDF: and cleaning up the existing code (02:00:19 PM) EfraimDF: eventually, I'd also like to move transcription off the wiki (02:00:25 PM) EfraimDF: so we can avoid the import step (02:00:41 PM) EfraimDF: which means having a direct XML editor (02:00:57 PM) EfraimDF: One simple precursor to that would be a "builder" type application (02:01:42 PM) EfraimDF: where you can take data that's existing in the database and combine it together from different sources and save an XML version of your combined work, then compile it to XHTML and display in-browser (02:02:49 PM) EfraimDF: It essentially involves writing a new XML file that consists of pointers into the origin XML files (02:02:53 PM) EfraimDF: Concrete example: (02:03:32 PM) EfraimDF: pesukei d'zimrah consists of baruch she'amar, followed by a number of paragraphs from Psalms, followed by some paragraphs from Chronicles and Exodus, followed by Yishtabach (02:04:10 PM) EfraimDF: There is no need to have a number of different copies of all the Psalms. The file representing Pesukei d'zimrah is just a set of pointers (includes) (02:05:44 PM) meitnik [4aa3ee78@gateway/web/freenode/ip.74.163.238.120] entered the room. (02:05:52 PM) EfraimDF: making sense? (02:06:23 PM) meitnik_ left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 252 seconds). (02:06:57 PM) marcstober: yes it makes sense in concept (02:07:21 PM) marcstober: i am going to have to go through the intro to hacking doc and actually start downloading things I think to really understand where you're at (02:07:54 PM) EfraimDF: and, when you have trouble, please ask questions (02:08:18 PM) EfraimDF: things change quickly and documentation doesn't always get updated immediately (02:08:35 PM) zeev: Efraim: It was useful when you had the haggadah example online as that nicely illustrated the concept (02:08:59 PM) marcstober: of course (02:09:49 PM) marcstober: i mean in contrast, i was checking out the BBYO app the other day (02:09:49 PM) EfraimDF: here's an example: http://shell.jewishliturgy.org:8080/exist/rest/db/base/text/Genesis.xml (02:10:11 PM) marcstober: and you can visit it on the web and start looking at compiled services (02:10:13 PM) EfraimDF: our backend can currently do everything the BBYO app can (02:10:35 PM) EfraimDF: we just don't have much of an interface, and all the data isn't in our db (02:10:45 PM) EfraimDF: (actually, I think our backend is more advanced than theirs) (02:10:46 PM) marcstober: of course it's not as ambitious and endeavor as this one over all (02:11:37 PM) EfraimDF: Eventually, I'd like to have an app like that that an end user can go to without knowing anything about XML or databases (02:11:43 PM) marcstober: what am i supposed to see at this address? (02:11:58 PM) EfraimDF: an XML version of Genesis (02:12:16 PM) EfraimDF: that doesn't actually contain any text b/c it points to files holding each chapter (02:14:04 PM) marcstober: ok i see it if i view source (in Chrome), you just need to apply a stylesheet (XSLT or something) as you serve it out to a browser (02:14:18 PM) EfraimDF: Yes, it's raw XML (02:14:30 PM) EfraimDF: The demo can convert it to XHTML (02:15:01 PM) EfraimDF: http://jewishliturgy.org/dump/jlpdemo/0.3.1/JLPDemo.htm (02:15:01 PM) marcstober: and the demo runs just as a java applet? (02:15:06 PM) EfraimDF: Yes (02:15:34 PM) marcstober: is that what you really want of would you want a server-side app? (02:15:46 PM) EfraimDF: server-side app would be much better (02:15:51 PM) marcstober: where did you get the tanakh text - did someone encode it? (02:16:01 PM) EfraimDF: It's from the Westminster Leningrad Codex (02:16:32 PM) EfraimDF: It was encoded and is maintained by Christopher Kimball (02:16:43 PM) EfraimDF: http://www.tanach.us (02:16:52 PM) marcstober: and that is public domain? you find basically the same thing at Mechon Mamre but they say it's copyright - not sure how you can copyright the tanakh but IANAL (02:17:19 PM) EfraimDF: It's public domain. Mechon Mamre uses their own text. (02:17:23 PM) elliot [44279960@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.39.153.96] entered the room. (02:17:49 PM) EfraimDF: (Mechon Mamre's text is mostly Aleppo Codex with a reconstructed version where the Aleppo Codex doesn't exist) (02:17:51 PM) elliot is now known as Guest1344 (02:17:57 PM) EfraimDF: Hi Elliot (02:18:10 PM) Guest1344 left the room (quit: Client Quit). (02:19:27 PM) EfraimDF: IANAL either. They did make creative choices for the reconstruction, so, afacit, it is potentially copyrightable, although it's rather (fill your choice word for not-nice) to make the claim. (02:20:51 PM) EfraimDF: (WLC is an eBHS corrected against a facsimile version of the Leningrad Codex) (02:22:33 PM) EfraimDF: @marcstober -- to answer why the demo is a java applet: the transforms take a lot of memory and processing power; I don't think the server we've got now can handle it (02:22:34 PM) marcstober: ok, that is very interesting (02:23:23 PM) EfraimDF: speed/memory optimizations of the transforms are one thing that needs to be done (02:23:41 PM) marcstober: ok well that certainly seems like something can be improved with time and effort and mone (02:23:42 PM) EfraimDF: also doesn't require a database mirror b/c they can be run from the command line (02:23:44 PM) marcstober: money (02:24:15 PM) zeev: gotta go - I'll stay logged in though so that I can catch up on comments when I return (02:24:15 PM) EfraimDF: Actually, probably it would be best to just run the whole database on EC2 (02:24:19 PM) EfraimDF: ok (02:24:38 PM) marcstober: yes, something like that (02:24:39 PM) EfraimDF: I'm not sure how cost effective it is compared to the VPS. (02:24:57 PM) EfraimDF: We still need to time-optimize the transforms (02:25:09 PM) EfraimDF: (The tanach takes 8 minutes to compile!) (02:25:32 PM) marcstober: you could cache it, right? it doesn't change. (02:25:41 PM) EfraimDF: Parts of it can be cached (02:25:58 PM) EfraimDF: But, in the general case, caching will get you only far (02:26:06 PM) EfraimDF: *only so far (02:26:23 PM) EfraimDF: Because of the number of possible choices users can make (02:26:55 PM) marcstober: right. that is the difference between caching and just storing it in a higher level format (02:27:30 PM) EfraimDF: My thoughts on caching are that there is a higher-level format that's great for transforming, but terrible for storage/validation (02:27:42 PM) marcstober: you can generate whatever HTML you need but fragments of HTML that would generated repeatedly can be automatically cached (02:28:04 PM) EfraimDF: I dont know that I would cache at the HTML level (02:28:19 PM) marcstober: at least that is my quick thought on how it could scale. assumming it's a wild success and you have massive scalability problems :) (02:28:19 PM) EfraimDF: I would probably cache at the intermediate-level TEI. (02:29:03 PM) marcstober: well, it's something you could layer on top as needed to improve performance (02:29:04 PM) EfraimDF: But optimization takes a lot of time, and I'd rather have something to show than keep working on something really great that only a developer can see (02:29:17 PM) marcstober: yes (02:29:44 PM) EfraimDF: The transforms are now fully integrated. They need to be split up into smaller operational chunks also (02:29:55 PM) EfraimDF: as part of the optimization process (02:30:12 PM) EfraimDF: Also might make them more testable (02:30:16 PM) marcstober: so what you have now is code and wiki hosted on Google Code and that database server (the port 8080 thing) running on server at a web host? (02:30:42 PM) EfraimDF: code is on Google code, wiki is on Dreamhost, database is on VPS (02:31:10 PM) marcstober: and is there anything else running server-side? (02:31:17 PM) EfraimDF: no (02:31:35 PM) EfraimDF: everything we've got out to the world is either on the db or on the wiki (02:33:18 PM) EfraimDF: @meitnik before the topic completely drops, let us know if you make any progress on your keyboard! (02:34:09 PM) meitnik: yes i plan on sending a graphic image what I would like to use but it be nice to have some idea how gui for transcription is (02:34:28 PM) meitnik: or how you guys evision it (02:34:48 PM) EfraimDF: We'll probably be on the wiki for a while. (02:35:13 PM) marcstober: so what exactly do you see as the most important development task right now? (02:35:18 PM) EfraimDF: UI engineering (as you can probably tell) is not my specialty (02:35:41 PM) marcstober: that you need help with? (or maybe that was just the answer :) (02:36:05 PM) EfraimDF: completing a basic builder application (02:36:41 PM) EfraimDF: The first builder app could run off the db and use the XRX type model I've been using for the wiki importer (02:37:20 PM) marcstober: so an app that would let an end user compile stuff out of the database into their own document? (02:38:04 PM) EfraimDF: The user chooses whole documents (or partial documents) from the db, combines them together, runs the transforms (02:38:13 PM) EfraimDF: and gets out XHTML on a web browser (02:38:33 PM) EfraimDF: a little mini-project (02:38:56 PM) marcstober: what's xrx? (02:39:11 PM) EfraimDF: would be making sure the Java applet demo works w/the transforms in branches/efraim (I'll bet it doesn't) (02:39:38 PM) marcstober: are the transforms xslt? (02:39:43 PM) EfraimDF: Yes, XSLT 2.0 (02:39:53 PM) EfraimDF: XRX = XForms - REST - XQuery (02:40:33 PM) EfraimDF: The interface is written in XForms, client-server communication is done over HTTP, XQuery takes the place of PHP as a server side language (02:40:52 PM) EfraimDF: The wiki import code is all XRX (02:41:51 PM) marcstober: ok well it's been nice chatting with you all. there are a couple things I am going to do when I can find the time (02:42:06 PM) EfraimDF: ok. Please stay in touch. (02:42:22 PM) EfraimDF: What are your learning/getting acquainted priorities? (02:42:31 PM) EfraimDF: (so I have a sense of where you're leaning) (02:42:43 PM) marcstober: first I am going to go through the intro to hacking and see what I can actually figure out. I will probably have some questions/feedback about the documentation itself. (02:42:59 PM) EfraimDF: I'd expect it. I dont think anyone's ever actually followed it (02:43:30 PM) marcstober: and then i will see what makes sense. not sure how soon i'll get to all that but i'll write back to the google group if I find anything interesting. (02:43:50 PM) EfraimDF: Whats your background? (02:43:57 PM) EfraimDF: (coding-wise) (02:46:43 PM) marcstober: well a lot of Microsoft-centric stuff like C# along with XML and HTML and Javascript but picked up a lot of other things too, Python, Java, actually a lot of what I work on now is Cache but that's it's own world altogether (02:47:31 PM) EfraimDF: The small amount of Java code we've got might be a gentle introduction place to start (02:48:16 PM) EfraimDF: and potentially useful, at least until we get that top dollar funder who will buy us unlimited time on EC2 :-) (02:49:07 PM) EfraimDF: You'd also learn a lot about how the transforms work (02:49:35 PM) marcstober: yeah, that too. :) i'll take a look at the Java code when I get a chance. (02:49:42 PM) marcstober: ok, talk you later (02:49:48 PM) EfraimDF: later, thanks for coming! (02:49:55 PM) marcstober left the room (quit: Quit: Page closed). (02:50:30 PM) EfraimDF: Anyone have anything else to bring up? (02:51:50 PM) EfraimDF: ok, then. I'll try to get the logs out as soon as possible. (02:52:08 PM) EfraimDF: Thanks, and, have a good day...