IRC Conference/logs/2010-01-24

Conference log for the Jan 24, 2010 chat. See the summary for discussed topics. Questions or comments should be directed to the discussion list.

(Note: this log has some chat from 1:00PM-1:30PM redacted.)

 (12:59:46 PM) zeev [i=cf66664f@gateway/web/freenode/x-kkjsfkugllnkblry] entered the room. (01:00:24 PM) zeev: hello all, boker tov from the west coast (01:01:00 PM) Aharon: he zeev! (01:01:17 PM) Aharon: hail from across the continent (01:01:31 PM) realazthat: good move making it a bit later ;) (01:01:34 PM) EfraimDF: good morning or afternoon to all (depending on where you are) ;-) (01:02:16 PM) Aharon: let's update everyone where we're at re: software developement and afterwards, re: texts and content (01:02:49 PM) EfraimDF: do we want to hold for a few for latecomers? (01:03:11 PM) Aharon: i'm ok with that (01:03:16 PM) EfraimDF: (historically, we havent started until 10 after) (01:03:23 PM) EfraimDF: unless anyone's in a hurry (01:03:27 PM) Aharon: right (01:03:34 PM) zeev: time for another cup of coffee then (01:03:35 PM) Aharon: is anyone in a hurry? (01:04:56 PM) yakovsh [n=yakovsh@static-98-140-248-67.dsl.cavtel.net] entered the room. (01:05:54 PM) EfraimDF: hi (01:07:29 PM) EfraimDF: while we're at it, why don't we make sure everyone knows who everyone is... (01:07:52 PM) EfraimDF: if you want to introduce yourself and your interest in the project, please do so now (01:08:10 PM) zeev: Hi all, I'm Ze (01:08:20 PM) zeev: Ze (01:08:32 PM) Aharon: i'm Aharon Varady, founder and co-director of the Open Siddur Project (01:08:55 PM) Aharon: hi yakovsh (01:09:03 PM) EfraimDF: I'm Efraim Feinstein, lead developer/co-director (or whatever). I have my paws everywhere, but mostly, I've been working on the XSLT transforms and XML specs (01:09:38 PM) yakovsh: i'm yakov shafranovich (01:09:49 PM) yakovsh: i am here as an unofficial liason to hebrewbooks.org (01:09:58 PM) Aharon: lovely! (01:10:06 PM) Aharon: thanks for coming by (01:10:11 PM) realazthat: Hi, I am Azriel, developer with the project, mostly on actually putting Efraim's transformations to use, and some designing and manipulating the XML (01:10:40 PM) zeev: I'm Ze'ev Clementson, I wrote an iPhone Hebrew Bible app and am interested in helping out with the development of open Hebrew texts (01:11:11 PM) Aharon: Are you in Israel, yakovsh ? (01:11:28 PM) zeev: I'm currently on a slow dialup connection, so may drop off at any time (01:11:40 PM) EfraimDF: ok (01:11:49 PM) realazthat: zeev: those used to work too ;) (01:12:24 PM) EfraimDF: ok I think we can move on to the dev update (01:12:33 PM) zeev: when you're used to high-speed connections, dialup seems very fragile ;) (01:12:47 PM) Aharon: software development first (01:13:10 PM) EfraimDF: specs: not much change here (01:13:13 PM) Aharon: last we met, we announced our demo (01:13:29 PM) Aharon: and that demonstrated the following: (01:13:48 PM) yakovsh: i am in us (01:13:49 PM) yrosen[brb] is now known as yrosen (01:13:57 PM) yrosen: back (01:14:18 PM) SHF [i=18dade75@gateway/web/freenode/x-crbcpqclyhgwfalx] entered the room. (01:14:51 PM) EfraimDF: ((hi SHF, yrosen. We're doing an update on software dev; if you want, please introduce yourselves )) (01:15:14 PM) Aharon: Our demo, demonstrated we have a functioning database, xml spec, and the means to display our xml (01:15:27 PM) realazthat: I have been working an HTML/JavaScipt editor for our JLPTEI files (01:15:31 PM) yrosen: Hi, I'm Yudi Rosen, was introduced to the project by realazthat. I'd like to assist in the frontend development, but havn't actually contributed anything yet. (01:15:47 PM) Aharon: JLPTEI is our xml spec (01:16:15 PM) Aharon: no worries (01:17:27 PM) yrosen_ [i=63bf7b1d@gateway/web/freenode/x-dbppmbtprnqkhvyu] entered the room. (01:17:40 PM) yrosen_: great, wifi is acting up again :\ (01:18:02 PM) SHF: Shira from Brookline (01:18:32 PM) yrosen left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 180 seconds). (01:21:02 PM) yrosen_ is now known as yrosen (01:23:44 PM) Aharon: it's interesting and probably worthy of a little discussion. we've talked in the past about OCR and the use of non-commercial OCR products. our policy is to only use open source tech within our open siddur processes but to accept materials contributed that may have used non-free tech (01:23:59 PM) EfraimDF: Not a problem (01:24:14 PM) EfraimDF: text is text. From our perspective, it's just a bad transcription (01:24:17 PM) yakovsh: there is no open source OCR technology comparable to abby right now (01:24:23 PM) yakovsh: we wish there was (01:24:47 PM) EfraimDF: I think our policy position on that is not to have any part of the platform *rely* on non-free technology (01:24:56 PM) yakovsh: ocr is not necessary (01:25:05 PM) yakovsh: it is always possible to transcribe by hand :) (01:25:09 PM) EfraimDF: We always have the option of going to manual transcription and it's not becoming part of our toolchain (01:25:35 PM) yakovsh: i gotta go in a minute (01:25:38 PM) EfraimDF: Same way we don't care if someone transcribes text on a Windows computer :-) (01:27:17 PM) Aharon: btw, i'd love to see another chart like the one at cornell (linked above) for israeli copyright (01:27:40 PM) EfraimDF: Basically, pre 1923 is OK no matter what (01:28:06 PM) yakovsh: israeli copyright is 70 years (01:28:07 PM) Aharon: The Tulane Center for Intellectual Property Law and Culture (partnered with the Open Siddur) should know more (01:28:16 PM) yakovsh: after the date of death of author (01:28:18 PM) EfraimDF: authors death + 70, I think (01:28:25 PM) EfraimDF: which is now the same as the US (01:28:27 PM) yakovsh: you can use JNUL in israel to check for date of death (01:28:55 PM) EfraimDF: but it doesn't apply for anything pre-Berne's effect (01:29:45 PM) Aharon: yakovsh 's comments segue to an update of text contributions so maybe we'll talk more about that first then software developments (after) (01:29:45 PM) EfraimDF: the issue usually is works that are non-US and published between 1923 and 1963 (01:30:13 PM) yakovsh left the room. (01:30:33 PM) EfraimDF: contribution update first, then transcription update? (01:30:53 PM) realazthat: any questions on software? (01:31:10 PM) EfraimDF: let's deal w/software after we sort out texts? (01:31:19 PM) realazthat: ok (01:32:15 PM) Aharon: great. we received two major contributions. one we can act on directly the other needs conversion help (01:32:37 PM) Aharon: the first is Gabriel Wasserman's machsor for chanukah. (01:33:06 PM) Aharon: transcribed from seder avodat israel, but with some changes and no meteg's. correct efraimdf? (01:33:56 PM) EfraimDF: transcribed mainly from baer (seder avodat yisrael) w/some changes for minhag of Kehillat Adat Jeshrun in NY as observed by the contributor (01:33:58 PM) Aharon: this buys us some time in our transcription of the seder avodat israel since transcription of a number of pages just turned into proofreading a number of pages (01:34:32 PM) yrosen_ [i=18b6bcba@gateway/web/freenode/x-wmahhsfiaiwsdmpy] entered the room. (01:34:40 PM) EfraimDF: He carefully transcribed the text, but not all of its punctuation (01:34:51 PM) yrosen left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 180 seconds). (01:35:08 PM) EfraimDF: where "a number" is pretty much all of shabbat davening (01:35:17 PM) Aharon: The second contribution is from Juan Meija. the text is that of the Spanish-Portuguese nusach (01:35:33 PM) Aharon: the format is native davka. (01:36:01 PM) Aharon: we think we have the means to convert it without any loss of diacritical data (01:36:26 PM) Aharon: but we need some help from someone who has Davkawriter to make for us a conversion chart we can use (01:36:55 PM) EfraimDF: partway there on that. I still don't know how to read DavkaWriter files :-) (01:37:09 PM) Aharon: This is a project that should take a half-hour at most for someone with davkaWriter (01:37:24 PM) EfraimDF: but we may be able to get around that with some careful use of find and replace and save as text (01:37:30 PM) Aharon: we need help finding someone to take on this task (01:38:36 PM) EfraimDF: Next on texts -- we still need help correcting the OCRs for the 1917 JPS (01:38:50 PM) EfraimDF: The first half of Psalms is now 1/2 done (01:39:04 PM) Aharon: so 1/4 done all in all? (01:39:09 PM) EfraimDF: Yup (01:39:12 PM) Aharon: nice (01:39:18 PM) EfraimDF: But will go a lot faster w/more people working on it (01:39:33 PM) Aharon: how many people are working on transcription including you and me? (01:39:57 PM) zeev: EfraimDF: did you ever get a response on the status of the karaite 1917 jps digital copy? (01:40:09 PM) EfraimDF: 3 people have been logging recently, we have occasional one-page transcribers but not many (01:40:15 PM) EfraimDF: Never got a response (01:40:52 PM) Aharon: tell me more about this 1917 karaite siddur? (01:40:57 PM) EfraimDF: It's not a siddur (01:41:08 PM) Aharon: no? (01:41:10 PM) zeev: that's unfortunate - it would be much faster if you could copy/paste from an existing digital text and just edit that (01:41:29 PM) EfraimDF: The karaite-korner website has a digital copy of the 1917 JPS (which they modified for the form of the name of God) (01:41:45 PM) EfraimDF: We don't know its provenance though (01:41:58 PM) Aharon: oh... right. and i told you that karite Korner was Nehemia Gordon who I'm in touch with (01:42:17 PM) EfraimDF: and since there's an extant claim over one of the digital transcriptions of the 1917 JPS, I'd need to make sure it didn't derive from that one (01:42:23 PM) EfraimDF: before copy-pasting it into ours (01:42:31 PM) Aharon: hmm (01:42:47 PM) Aharon: can we draft a question i can pose to Nehemia? (01:43:03 PM) EfraimDF: I already did. I can forward you my email from a month ago (01:43:27 PM) Aharon: Nehemia has been on a book tour so I'm not surprised (01:43:40 PM) EfraimDF: ok, we can definitely try again (01:44:53 PM) EfraimDF: ISTA also OCR/transcribed the Standard Prayer Book (Singer, 1915) (01:45:21 PM) EfraimDF: And Ze'ev has gotten at least part way into an encoding conversion of it. (01:45:35 PM) EfraimDF: Any progress there? Questions? (01:46:08 PM) Aharon: ISTA is the Internet Sacred Texts Archive (01:46:13 PM) zeev: Basically, I've gotten to the stage where the singer doc is now well-formed xml (expanded macros, some cleaning up, html->xml) (01:46:59 PM) zeev: For the next stage, I've got to break the book up into tei xml fragments (01:47:26 PM) zeev: I'm currently trying to come up to speed on xslt 2.0 and tei and jlptei (01:47:34 PM) zeev: bit of a learning curve (01:47:39 PM) EfraimDF: XSLT 2.0 will definitely help you over XSLT 1.0 (01:47:53 PM) zeev: it would be very hard with 1.0 (01:47:56 PM) zeev: and messy (01:48:05 PM) EfraimDF: the transforms would be painful in XSLT 1.0 (01:48:45 PM) zeev: yes, so I'm not attempting anything until I can get through the reading material (01:48:51 PM) EfraimDF: Anything you've found unclear in the JLPTEI stuff? (01:49:18 PM) zeev: haven't gotten to the jlptei stuff yet - still have to work through the tei material (01:49:23 PM) EfraimDF: (I'm assuming the answer will be "yes") (01:49:24 PM) EfraimDF: ok (01:50:00 PM) zeev: problem is that I also have to do client stuff and can't devote a good block of time to this (01:50:09 PM) EfraimDF: ok (01:50:25 PM) EfraimDF: slow progress is definitely better than none (01:50:26 PM) zeev: it'll happen, just not real quick (01:50:52 PM) EfraimDF: Anyway, you'll get to add XSLT 2.0 to your resume :-) (01:51:18 PM) zeev: yes and tei/jlptei :) (01:52:16 PM) EfraimDF: Jessi Abrahams has been looking into input conversions of the haggadah text from the proof of concept to new-encoding (01:52:37 PM) EfraimDF: They've also been proofread one more time, and a number of errors were corrected. (01:53:27 PM) EfraimDF: Does that cover texts? (01:54:39 PM) Aharon: we've had a few more people contact us regarding contributions that we should note (01:54:47 PM) EfraimDF: ok go ahead... (01:55:22 PM) Aharon: one of them we cannot publicly announce but it is big. the issue (as always) is clarifying issues of copyright (01:56:07 PM) Aharon: in this case the issue is the contributor thinks the material is out of copyright at least according to Israeli copyright (01:56:49 PM) Aharon: and this situation (explaining copyright) extends to a number of other communications we've had (01:57:06 PM) yrosen_ left the room (quit: "Page closed"). (01:57:12 PM) yrosen [i=63bf7b1d@gateway/web/freenode/x-tbolfquxsgqoaltf] entered the room. (01:57:32 PM) EfraimDF: It's almost like a FAQ ... (01:57:57 PM) Aharon: Making the case that the project of Jewish spirituality is furthered through collaboration and sharing is one we are now working on extensively (01:58:20 PM) Aharon: and this was a major part of my presentation on the Open Siddur at Limmud NY last week (01:58:33 PM) yrosen_ [i=63bf7b1d@gateway/web/freenode/x-gwzpzjidyyyfxhim] entered the room. (01:58:46 PM) EfraimDF: << someone get duct tape for Yudi >> (01:59:44 PM) Aharon: one outcome of the presentation at Limmud NY was that I was invited to speak re: the Open Siddur and collaboration at the upcoming Academy of Jewish Religion seminar for independent congregational rabbis (02:00:10 PM) yrosen_: EfraimDF: sorry about that :p (02:00:12 PM) yrosen left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 180 seconds). (02:00:15 PM) yrosen_: I think (hope) it'll be working now (02:00:23 PM) zeev left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 180 seconds). (02:00:28 PM) EfraimDF: << duct tape -- solves all problems >> (02:01:02 PM) Aharon: after our software dev discussion... maybe we can talk about other targets we have re: text and supplementary material (02:01:06 PM) EfraimDF: << except for the ones only solved by double sided tape and epoxy >> (02:01:19 PM) EfraimDF: ok (02:01:22 PM) Aharon: heh (02:01:55 PM) EfraimDF: transforms: Lots of improvement in the XSLT over the past month (02:02:25 PM) EfraimDF: The current svn revision now does translation alignment, even between two different sets of concurrent hierarchies (02:02:58 PM) EfraimDF: so, say a Hebrew text and English text have different paragraph breaks, both will be reflected in the aligned text (02:03:28 PM) EfraimDF: It has rudimentary support for inserting instructional text (02:03:32 PM) zeev [i=cf666ab6@gateway/web/freenode/x-iiqsalkswmzkszlo] entered the room. (02:03:50 PM) EfraimDF: and what I think is full support for the 3-way conditional system (02:03:50 PM) zeev: #@$@# dialup (02:03:57 PM) EfraimDF: << wb zeev) (02:04:20 PM) EfraimDF: my next mission is reintegrating the automated transliterator (02:04:41 PM) EfraimDF: which is now coded, but completely undebugged, so I haven't committed to svn yet (02:05:18 PM) EfraimDF: speaking of which, Raphael Finkel coded for us software to identify qamats qatan and sheva na in an undifferentiated text (02:05:34 PM) EfraimDF: it's currently under testing (02:05:50 PM) EfraimDF: http://www.cs.uky.edu/~raphael/linguistics/fixHebrew.cgi (02:05:57 PM) EfraimDF: attack it with weird texts. :-) (02:06:07 PM) EfraimDF: tell us where it gets it right and where it's wrong (02:06:42 PM) EfraimDF: once we verify that it's working well enough, it needs to be integrated into the database (02:06:59 PM) zeev: what language is it written in? (02:07:02 PM) EfraimDF: Perl (02:07:24 PM) EfraimDF: will probably need to be translated to XSLT or XQuery (or maybe Java) (02:08:03 PM) EfraimDF: mostly, we wanted a working algorithm, and we think it's almost there. (02:08:49 PM) EfraimDF: (translating it may require dusting off Aharon's Perl skills :-) ) (02:09:13 PM) zeev: was the algorithm something Raphael developed or was it based on something else? (02:09:19 PM) EfraimDF: I think he developed it (02:09:26 PM) Aharon: that is so cool. also building new XSLT, XQuery, or JAva skills (02:10:14 PM) Aharon: it's probably not possible for me to give time to the programming side while working on the communications angle for Open Siddur, and doing Yeshivat Hadar :( (02:10:17 PM) EfraimDF: (my Perl skills = reading Perl *if* it's not written by someone who uses too many Perl-isms ) (02:10:58 PM) EfraimDF: I can probably do it, I just might need to use someone as a Perl reference -- or, I could finally give up and actually learn Perl (02:11:13 PM) zeev: much easier to write Perl than to read Perl ;-) (02:11:38 PM) zeev: luckily, I've never had to do either very often (02:12:09 PM) EfraimDF: There's more than one way to do it and they're all ugly code filled with arcane symbols (02:12:22 PM) yrosen_ left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 180 seconds). (02:12:32 PM) EfraimDF: but enough dissing Perl -- Azriel? (02:12:41 PM) Aharon: getting this integrated is a blocker for us getting the transliteration engine fully functioning? (02:13:32 PM) EfraimDF: yes (02:13:45 PM) EfraimDF: well, it'll work -- it'll just give the wrong answer :-) (02:14:06 PM) zeev: some of the time ... (02:14:24 PM) benjaminfleische left the room (quit: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). (02:14:25 PM) EfraimDF: what he said (02:14:38 PM) Aharon: besides the transliteration engine, there's the encoding engine... and OSNAT... remind us what that stands for (02:14:50 PM) EfraimDF: Open Siddur Network Application for Transcription (02:14:57 PM) benjaminfleische [n=benjamin@207-229-182-83.c3-0.lem-ubr1.chi-lem.il.cable.rcn.com] entered the room. (02:14:59 PM) EfraimDF: we need a cool acronym for the encoding app :-) (02:15:19 PM) EfraimDF: (( hi benjamin )) (02:15:25 PM) Aharon: N-Code (02:15:48 PM) EfraimDF: already taken (02:15:53 PM) Aharon: or Nikkud (02:16:18 PM) Aharon: or iNkud (02:16:26 PM) EfraimDF: we'll have to backronym it later (02:16:48 PM) Aharon: back to tachlis (02:16:55 PM) EfraimDF: Azriel? (02:17:05 PM) realazthat: yes? (02:17:11 PM) EfraimDF: code update? (02:17:37 PM) realazthat: we are working on a JLPTEI file editor (02:17:47 PM) realazthat: which is also an encoder application (02:18:01 PM) realazthat: it ties in very closely to recipe creation as well (02:18:13 PM) realazthat: currently, its entirely in javascript (02:18:18 PM) realazthat: and html (02:18:22 PM) realazthat: all jquery (02:18:32 PM) zeev: that sounds neat - is it an end-user tool or developer tool? (02:18:39 PM) EfraimDF: for now, a dev tool. (02:18:45 PM) realazthat: its a markup developer tool (02:18:54 PM) realazthat: end user will have trouble understanding it (02:18:57 PM) EfraimDF: (requires you to understand the JLPTEI file structure) (02:19:13 PM) realazthat: only the simplest parts (02:19:17 PM) realazthat: its quite easy (02:19:19 PM) zeev: any screenshots or writeups describing it available? (02:19:32 PM) realazthat: only on a white board (02:19:33 PM) realazthat: heh (02:19:37 PM) realazthat: it is in svn (02:19:41 PM) EfraimDF: well there is some code in svn (02:19:44 PM) realazthat: but its not fully functional (02:19:55 PM) realazthat: h/o (02:19:58 PM) EfraimDF: maybe a few paragraphs on the wiki wouldn't hurt (02:20:26 PM) realazthat: http://code.google.com/p/jewishliturgy/source/browse/trunk/code/encoding-app/recipe.js (02:20:40 PM) realazthat: http://code.google.com/p/jewishliturgy/source/browse/trunk/code/encoding-app/ is the entire thing (02:20:44 PM) zeev: so, is it meant to be used to create composite docs by merging jlptei segments from different docs? (02:20:58 PM) realazthat: part of it (02:21:01 PM) EfraimDF: that's the "recipe" type functionality (02:21:02 PM) realazthat: that part is not ready (02:21:12 PM) realazthat: I can explain the design (02:21:17 PM) EfraimDF: ok,... (02:21:21 PM) realazthat: Efraim and I met when he came to NY (02:21:30 PM) realazthat: we are very productive when we meet ;) (02:21:48 PM) realazthat: each JLPTEI file has a text repository (02:21:56 PM) realazthat: which is an unordered set of segments (02:21:59 PM) realazthat: like set theory (02:22:08 PM) realazthat: each one has an xmlid (02:22:14 PM) realazthat: in addition (02:22:20 PM) realazthat: each file has a sequence selection (02:22:34 PM) realazthat: which has lots of ptrs to the repository (02:22:42 PM) realazthat: and gives them order (02:22:55 PM) realazthat: it can also have duplicate ptrs (02:23:00 PM) realazthat: ptrs = pointers (02:23:27 PM) realazthat: the sequence can also select from other text repositories (02:23:42 PM) EfraimDF: from other selections :-) (02:24:07 PM) realazthat: then there are views which select parts of the sequence, and groups them (but keeps the order) (02:24:20 PM) realazthat: so we can have a sentence view (02:24:25 PM) realazthat: and a parsha view (02:24:29 PM) realazthat: and a sedra view (02:24:33 PM) realazthat: and an aliya view (02:24:37 PM) realazthat: and they can all overlap (02:24:45 PM) realazthat: overcomming the limitation of xml (02:24:52 PM) realazthat: what we have done so far (02:25:11 PM) realazthat: is to begin implementing a visual representation of the text repository (02:25:21 PM) realazthat: and the sequence selection (02:25:30 PM) realazthat: and allow the user to manipulate them (02:25:39 PM) realazthat: ie. add, delete segments (02:25:42 PM) realazthat: reorder them (02:25:44 PM) realazthat: etc. (02:26:11 PM) realazthat: this will be the first thing done after pre-encoding (02:26:27 PM) realazthat: pre-encoding will give the texts some semblence of JLPTEI (02:26:38 PM) zeev: slow connection so I can't look at pages very well till I'm back home - is the javascript msxml (e.g. - requiring IE as the browser) or are you using some js xml library? (02:26:41 PM) realazthat: it might make whole sentences into segments etc. (02:26:48 PM) realazthat: jquery (02:26:56 PM) realazthat: we don't like IE much (02:26:59 PM) realazthat: ;) (02:27:10 PM) zeev: cool (02:27:13 PM) realazthat: jquery is cross browser (02:27:25 PM) zeev: Yes, I've heard of it but never used it (02:27:27 PM) EfraimDF: We try to make sure everything works in at least FF, Chrome and IE > 7 (02:27:41 PM) realazthat: >= 7 (02:27:42 PM) EfraimDF: (sometimes, we even try IE >= 7) (02:27:52 PM) realazthat: as for XML manupulation, we are using Sarrisa (02:28:05 PM) realazthat: which normalizes the JS XSLT/XPATH api (02:28:11 PM) realazthat: across browsers (02:28:14 PM) realazthat: which have them (02:28:29 PM) Aharon: What about Xqlib? (02:28:44 PM) Aharon: i mean XQIB (02:28:53 PM) EfraimDF: not ready yet (02:29:21 PM) EfraimDF: XQiB (XQuery in the Browser) is a great idea (02:29:34 PM) realazthat: its a browser plugin though (02:29:39 PM) realazthat: heh (02:29:43 PM) EfraimDF: and is backed up by some code that comes with a huge "don't use this in a production environment warning" (02:29:44 PM) realazthat: interesting (02:29:55 PM) EfraimDF: it is a browser plugin, so it's not cross-browser either (02:30:18 PM) zeev: Sarissa - Konq and Safari offer no XSLT/XPath scripting support AFAIK :-( (02:30:21 PM) realazthat: it _is_ a cool idea (02:30:33 PM) realazthat: zeev: there is a third party implementation in JS (02:30:39 PM) realazthat: its just much slower (02:30:57 PM) realazthat: so for safari/konquerer I would use that (02:31:17 PM) realazthat: zeev: look at Sarrisa's docs, it explains how (02:31:36 PM) realazthat: just haven't had the time to do that (02:32:09 PM) EfraimDF: would be good to get it working in Safari at least (since that's basically the browser of choice for a lot of the Mac user base) (02:32:49 PM) realazthat: http://dev.abiss.gr/sarissa/howtos.html#javeline (02:33:04 PM) EfraimDF: but first let's get it working at all :-) (02:33:08 PM) realazthat: yup (02:34:04 PM) zeev: gotta go - good chatting with everyone - thanks for organizing this Efraim (02:34:10 PM) EfraimDF: thanks for coming (02:34:12 PM) realazthat: I haven't really done anything with the demo (02:34:25 PM) realazthat: and we haven't gotten many bug reports (02:34:29 PM) EfraimDF: I think encoding app is more pressing now than the demo (02:34:41 PM) realazthat: sure (02:34:56 PM) zeev: EfraimDF: presumably, you will publish logs of irc chat? (02:34:59 PM) EfraimDF: Yes (02:35:05 PM) realazthat: with some editing (02:35:10 PM) realazthat: for yakov (02:35:22 PM) zeev: thanks, bye all (02:35:25 PM) EfraimDF: we may decide to excise some of the beginning :-) (02:35:42 PM) zeev left the room (quit: ). (02:36:05 PM) EfraimDF: We should list our goals are for Demo v0.4 (02:36:25 PM) realazthat: I think they are (02:36:26 PM) Aharon: folks ask me two questions: how far are you along? and when will it be ready? (02:36:31 PM) realazthat: unless u have stuff to add (02:36:34 PM) realazthat: its on the demo page (02:36:47 PM) realazthat: Aharon: put those in the FAQ wiki page (02:36:55 PM) Aharon: will do (02:37:16 PM) realazthat: Aharon: you wanted to discuss output formats (02:37:28 PM) realazthat: Aharon: right now we only have HTML (02:37:53 PM) realazthat: unfortunately, I was unable (but am still searching) to find a path to PDF (02:37:59 PM) realazthat: in Java (02:38:29 PM) realazthat: so for now (02:38:32 PM) realazthat: we got XHTML (02:38:43 PM) realazthat: there are also a few other possiblities (02:38:47 PM) realazthat: ODF (02:38:51 PM) realazthat: open document format (02:38:57 PM) realazthat: == Open Office (02:39:15 PM) EfraimDF: (and KWord and even MS Word 12 now) (02:39:30 PM) realazthat: PDF vectors, ie. no selectable text, everything is drawn, file is huge (02:39:38 PM) realazthat: SVG vectors (02:39:43 PM) realazthat: any image format (02:40:24 PM) realazthat: from the perspective of texts (02:40:29 PM) realazthat: thats going much faster (02:40:53 PM) EfraimDF: another possibility (which I really dont want to use) is XeTeX in the cloud (02:41:07 PM) realazthat: or Open Office in the cloud (02:41:07 PM) realazthat: heh (02:41:09 PM) EfraimDF: (which will probably require us to charge for PDF output to offset costs) (02:41:12 PM) realazthat: for PDF output (02:41:45 PM) EfraimDF: (giving anyone who wants the option to install the transforms locally if they want to and run them on their own machine) (02:42:26 PM) EfraimDF: XeTeX will give nicer output than OOo any day, so if we go by cloud solution, I'd rather output to XeTeX than ODT as the route to PDF (02:42:27 PM) realazthat: its quite frustrating really (02:42:45 PM) realazthat: there are many good PDF libraries (02:42:58 PM) realazthat: none are good for everything we need (02:43:05 PM) realazthat: some show the text backward (02:43:23 PM) realazthat: some don't understand OpenType which is the type of font we need (02:43:26 PM) realazthat: for complex hebrew (02:44:56 PM) EfraimDF: lots of ways to get 50% of the way there. (02:45:53 PM) Aharon: we might need an intermediary stage for helping folk download text that we've proofread but which hasn't been encoded (02:46:17 PM) Aharon: like an alpha-download pack (02:46:24 PM) EfraimDF: if it's not encoded, it's on the wiki (02:46:52 PM) Aharon: yeah but it's not organized on the wiki except as page numbered images from our texts (02:46:59 PM) EfraimDF: getting it off the wiki is doable but not trivial (02:47:03 PM) Aharon: right (02:47:13 PM) EfraimDF: neither for human nor computer (02:47:19 PM) EfraimDF: (we also have some texts on svn) (02:47:45 PM) EfraimDF: I don't have time to figure out the mechanics of getting that working (02:47:59 PM) EfraimDF: if someone else wants to do it, I'm ok with it happening (02:48:10 PM) Aharon: lots of downloads of reb zalman's siddur and i've gotten a communication from a hillel in philly that they're using the texts we've made available to create their friday night service (02:49:20 PM) Aharon: so the more we make available that people can use the more we publicize and promote the project and its values (02:49:44 PM) yrosen [i=63bf7b1d@gateway/web/freenode/x-jcegezfglfcqpjjh] entered the room. (02:49:45 PM) Aharon: waiting for all the parts to come together before output is available doesn't sit well with me (02:49:57 PM) Aharon: so long as we have outpuit that is useful (02:50:01 PM) EfraimDF: as I said, requires someone to devote time to developing it (02:50:09 PM) Aharon: ok (02:50:40 PM) Aharon: i'll work on it (02:51:06 PM) EfraimDF: it's a moving target, so it would need to be coded (02:54:54 PM) Aharon: last week i transferred opensiddur.org to datarealm hosting with Tucows as the registrar. i just checked whois and domaincetre.ca is listed as the registrar.... there must be some confusion between the registrars? (02:55:41 PM) EfraimDF: No idea (02:55:59 PM) Aharon: azriel? (02:56:22 PM) Aharon: realazthat? (02:56:31 PM) realazthat: sorry (02:56:33 PM) realazthat: was afk (02:56:57 PM) Aharon: whois seems confused as to the domain registrar (02:57:09 PM) Aharon: it's still isting the old registrar after switching last week (02:57:20 PM) Aharon: any ideas? (02:57:45 PM) Aharon: for a brief time it was working and the mx record was set too (02:57:58 PM) realazthat: no idea (02:57:59 PM) realazthat: heh (02:57:59 PM) Aharon: now it's not and email is not functional (02:58:17 PM) Aharon: perhaps domaincetre.ca grabbed it's registration back? (02:58:43 PM) EfraimDF: whois lists "TRANSFER PROHIBITED" (02:58:52 PM) Aharon: yeah... what's that about? (02:59:10 PM) EfraimDF: unlock required somewhere? (02:59:13 PM) realazthat: h/o (02:59:45 PM) Aharon: azriel gave me an authcode that i shared with datarealm support... that's what got it switched at least temporarily last week (03:00:04 PM) EfraimDF: check w/datarealm support? (03:00:11 PM) Aharon: i will tomorrow (03:00:43 PM) Aharon: but i want to know what's up with whatever user account we have access to at this other registrar (03:01:04 PM) Aharon: could you send me the username/password to get into that site and see what's what? (03:01:17 PM) EfraimDF: if you do, plz use an ssl connection (03:01:24 PM) EfraimDF: not irc or email :-) (03:02:09 PM) realazthat: done (03:02:25 PM) realazthat: anyone have any questions about anything? (03:03:10 PM) EfraimDF: SHF, benjaminfleische or yrosen ? (03:03:25 PM) SHF: no, thanks (03:03:27 PM) yrosen: nope (03:03:35 PM) yrosen: I'll have to read the logs after (03:03:35 PM) benjaminfleische: just checking in now (03:03:47 PM) SHF: just following but more technical today than I could comment on (03:04:50 PM) EfraimDF: tends to be what happens when the ones who talk are the coders :-) (03:05:43 PM) EfraimDF: I'm going to edit the Demo page's v0.4 release goals (03:05:53 PM) EfraimDF: and we'll see if we think they're hittable (03:06:51 PM) EfraimDF: Anything else we should cover? (03:07:04 PM) EfraimDF: or are we all hitting space-out time? (03:09:12 PM) EfraimDF: I'll take that as "we're all hitting space-out time" (03:09:51 PM) EfraimDF: What do you think of the 1PM start time? Better than 11AM? (03:10:18 PM) SHF: Either is good if I'm home for the day, and bad if I'm out (03:10:22 PM) SHF: so no preference. . . (03:10:39 PM) EfraimDF: I think zeev (west coast) preferred 1PM. (03:11:55 PM) EfraimDF: Next open chat will not be on Feb 28th :-) (03:12:55 PM) EfraimDF: Thanks for coming; I think we're closing down the official portion for the day (if anything ever was official in any way)