IRC Conference/logs/2010-07-25
From Open Siddur Project Development Wiki
[12:40] <EfraimDF> hi
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[12:57] <EfraimDF> hi
[12:57] <Shmueli> hiya
[12:58] <aharonium> good morning LA
[12:58] <Shmueli> Pardon me today, headache left over from packing away the rest of last nights bottle of havdalah wine ;)
[13:00] <EfraimDF> as long as it didn't go to waste
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[13:02] <EfraimDF> hi
[13:02] <aharonium> hello!
[13:02] <Shmueli> hey there :)
[13:03] <aharonium> we're just going to wait a couple more minutes before getting started
[13:04] <aharonium> to give a little more time for latecomers
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[13:06] <EfraimDF> hi ...
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[13:07] <aharonium> alright, thanks Shmueli and Virginia for coming
[13:07] <Virginia> please ignore introduction of "QWEBIRC..." -- my daughter was trying to help me, Virginia, log on
[13:07] <aharonium> cool!
[13:07] <EfraimDF> that's what happens when anyone joins and doesn't specify a nickname
[13:07] <aharonium> let's introduce ourselves
[13:08] <aharonium> i'm Aharon Varady and i'm the founder of the Open Siddur Project.
[13:09] <aharonium> presently i'm in NYC but that could change quickly
[13:09] <Virginia> I live in DC (which confuses some people, because my name is Virginia) and spend a lot of time reading about and writing about Jewish liturgy and text.
[13:10] <Shmueli> im here in LA
[13:10] <EfraimDF> I'm Efraim Feinstein, lead developer of the Open Siddur. I'm in Cambridge, MA I mostly write code and tech stuff; I also do scanning and transcription on the content side (and I generally write the first drafts of transcription rules and specs, so I'm the one to complain to if you don't get what it says).
[13:11] <aharonium> Shmueli has done some transcription work on hasidic siddurim
[13:12] <aharonium> that's how i found him :)
[13:12] <aharonium> tell me more about your work in Jewish liturgy, Virgina
[13:12] <Shmueli> yes. nusach ari has been my toy for a while now :)
[13:14] <Virginia> I am a boundary-crossing Jew, spending time with Reform Jews and Orthodox and many different communities, so I've gotten interested in examining different perpsectives and in sharing
[13:15] <aharonium> We want the Open Siddur to be a resource for folk creating and sharing their work in Jewish practice. It'll be a while before the web application we're developing is ready. Meanwhile, nothing should prevent us from sharing and helping one another using older networking methods (email, webpage uploads, etc.)
[13:16] <EfraimDF> we do have a fully functioning wiki where public textual material can be stored as well
[13:16] <aharonium> and now we have a nice upload form too http://opensiddur.org/contribute/upload/
[13:16] <aharonium> for work that's already been created offline
[13:17] <Virginia> Great -- text would be more my contribution versus tech or translating. I have written some things that I would share, if I got myself organized to do it
[13:17] <aharonium> essays, commentary, historical/sociological analysis?
[13:18] <aharonium> (research, art, and oranizational support are also needed :)
[13:18] <Virginia> essays, commentary, some prayers -- little bit of historical analysis -- I used to be active in Fabrangen (a relatively old DC havurah) where a lot of liturgy is created by just plain folks
[13:19] <aharonium> oh wow
[13:19] <aharonium> my old boss Peter Harnik was in Fabrengen and my good friend Laura Bellows grew up in it
[13:20] <Virginia> I don't know Peter, but I've known Laura for more than 10 years. I know there are other Fabrangener "friends" of Open Siddur. I'm sure more will share things
[13:21] <aharonium> would you like to know more about how we share work or our philosophy?
[13:21] <Virginia> So, how do you think I could be most helpful in contributing to and promoting the project?
[13:22] <Virginia> yes
[13:22] <aharonium> i think if you shared anything we would be happy to post it on our website for now, and it woud be added
[13:23] <aharonium> later into a user database of contributed content, formatted in XML for easy inclusion in future siddurim
[13:23] <EfraimDF> (you won't have to worry about the XML conversion issues -- that's my problem :-) )
[13:23] <aharonium> if you haven't already, to join the opensiddur-talk listserve. you can also share material there.
[13:24] <EfraimDF> -talk is probably better for actual discussion
[13:24] <aharonium> and if you'd like me to review the materia firstl and then introduce it via a web post, we could do that. and we could email privately any questions
[13:25] <Virginia> Well, here's the thing: I joined several listserves, including that one, I think. But there were so many avenues I got confused about what to do. I've done a tiny bit of contributing to Wikis -- it makes me nuts that so many Torah resources on Wikipedia are trditional and NOT egalitarian, so I learned enough to make a few changes
[13:25] <aharonium> my main fear is that there is so much interesting work that people have done in jewish liturgy that is destined for obscurity or worse unless it begins to be shared
[13:26] <aharonium> be yourself, no need to self-censor here
[13:26] <EfraimDF> Wikipedia and Wikisource have the issue that they need to find consensus formulations
[13:27] <Virginia> thanks. I think I cut off my comment in a weird way. What I was trying to say is that I learned to edit Wiki pages just so I could put on more egalitarian stuff
[13:27] <EfraimDF> We are keeping variants
[13:27] <aharonium> our project is non-prescriptive and non-denominational.
[13:27] <aharonium> we want to express the full diversity of Jewish creativity and contribution here
[13:27] <Shmueli> i was looking at the Dr. Avigdor Shinan documents. what is really sad is that my experience has been that a lot of people have created works in programs like Davka were the fonts are not compatable with unicode fonts so they are really useless for passing on in an open format
[13:27] <EfraimDF> Yes, that's our problem, Shmueli
[13:28] <aharonium> it's a technical point which has some bearing here. has that been an issue for you Virginia?
[13:29] <Virginia> I want to respond to the obscurity point. I was thinking how much stuff we have in Fabrangen -- talking back to mimeographs -- that is absolutely going to disappear the way things are now. The tech issue is
[13:30] <EfraimDF> In the case of sharing works of other people, we do need the permission of the original author(s)
[13:30] <aharonium> this was a point i also made to some folk at the West End Synagogue in NYC, a reconstructionist congregation that had a very creative liturgy group
[13:31] <Virginia> Sure. I understand that. I was just thinking about the "obscurity" thing. I have my own things. But Fabrangen as an example has so much that they're not re-using.
[13:31] <aharonium> is there a good contact person who might invite us to speak at a Fabrengen gathering about this issue?
[13:32] <EfraimDF> Part of that is a tech issue from the time they were created. And, part of it is a cultural issue
[13:32] <EfraimDF> At this point (yay, Internet!) the cultural issue is the biggest barrier (I think)
[13:33] <aharonium> ultimately, we'd like folks who believe in this issue to speak to their own community about this and then either use the open siddur project to relicense existing works using certain "free culture" licenses
[13:33] <EfraimDF> Shmueli, I actually got ~50% of the way to converting those PDFs. Correcting my conversion needs some extra tech work that I just dont have the time to do now
[13:34] <EfraimDF> (believe it or not, the Hebrew is stored backwards)
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[13:34] <EfraimDF> Hi sslivko...
[13:34] <aharonium> @efraimDF Shmueli sent over his docs in Open Document Format
[13:34] <EfraimDF> oh, I meant the Avigdor Shinan docs he was talking about
[13:34] <Virginia> I am happy to pass along a suggestion to the Fab Steering Committee and also post something on Fab's listserv as well as to others who may or may not be involved already and encourage contributing. Hi sslivko
[13:35] <aharonium> Hello SSlivko, please introduce yourself
[13:35] <EfraimDF> Shmueli's docs required no conversion.
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[13:35] <Shmueli> very nice. i've been stuck on working on mincha for erev shabbat, kabbalat shabbat and maariv. unfortionatly ive just been lagging, lot going on around here but i really wanna get that out of the way within the next few days. im using the ezra sil fonts to save the work of conversion as well, its really grown on me now that ive worked with it for a while
[13:36] <EfraimDF> Do you want to paste your work as you go on the wiki?
[13:36] <EfraimDF> I think you're using Siddur Torah Or, and we've got a scanned copy up now.
[13:36] <aharonium> thank you Virginia
[13:37] <aharonium> Laura Bellows knows this project well enough that she could probably add her voice to yours
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[13:37] <Shmueli> ive been looking over the scans of Siddur Torah Or. beautiful text, really, it helps me clarify a lot of idea i had about the Nusach Ari (Chabad) text because like most people of my age in a Tehillat Hashem user
[13:38] <EfraimDF> That siddur copy was found in the back of my (Ashkenazic) shul that had, at one time, been a merged nusach sfard shul w/a nusah ashkenaz shul
[13:38] <aharonium> sslivko, please write to me offlist aharon@opensiddur.org if you're having trouble connecting
[13:38] <EfraimDF> They didn't use Torah Or, though. They used Charlap's Abodat Yisrael.
[13:38] <Shmueli> im just barely becoming familiar with everything, the wiki, the transcribing module and all that
[13:39] <EfraimDF> if you have any questions, please ask.
[13:39] <Shmueli> wow. very very very nice find
[13:39] <EfraimDF> It helps to help them rearrange books :-)
[13:39] <aharonium> Virgina, could you send me some of your work today?
[13:40] <Virginia> Sure. I was just thinking that probably makes sense. I will talk to Laura, too, and see if we can nudge Fabrangeners to participate. Do you have Zoo Minyan people involved?
[13:40] <Shmueli> its funny because in the Chabad people we pretty much knew the old timers, the Torah Ohr users as the "strimmels" meaning the previous rebbe peeps, vs us more "modern" fedora guys. but im falling in love with the oldie but goodie ;)
[13:40] <aharonium> Yisrael, at the Zoo Minyan thought it was a great idea and about time
[13:41] <aharonium> this was about half a year ago... he said he'd forward news of the Open Siddur Project within the larger havurah network... so far as yet, no one has shared any work though
[13:42] <EfraimDF> As far as I can tell, the text is mostly the same. I don't follow internal Chabad politics much :-)
[13:42] <aharonium> one thing i noticed about the Torah Ohr that surprised me is that it lack some yichudim that i'd expect in a hassidic nusach
[13:42] <Virginia> Sorry to hear that contrbutions are low, but I think it is a little overwhelming. Like I said, I joined several Open Siddur lists and looked at wiki page but was just not sure what step to take.
[13:43] <aharonium> how long ago was that?
[13:43] <Shmueli> your right, its very much the same. but the way its layed out a bit differently, the way the paragraphs are broken of course means slight differences of chazzanut, so its kinda cute and hamish for those of us who arent used to it
[13:44] <aharonium> the wiki is really more for backend development work and transcription right now
[13:44] <aharonium> and it should stay that way
[13:44] <Virginia> I only found out about Open Siddur fairly recently. I was not on Facebook much until forced to do so by work. I am happy to connect with people on Fcebook and local lists now that I'm getting some feel for how it will work.
[13:45] <EfraimDF> wow... forced to do Facebook by work. never thought I'd hear that
[13:45] <aharonium> opensiddur.org is the place where i'll be posting contributions... and for folks uploading work
[13:46] <EfraimDF> @aharonium -- b/c opensiddur.org is a blog, will that make it easy to find what's been shared?
[13:46] <aharonium> there will be an issue of scale
[13:46] <EfraimDF> blogs are post and date-oriented, and the general assumption is that what's new is what should be read. shared material is not that date-sensitive (usually)
[13:47] <aharonium> with tags we can organize contributions
[13:47] <aharonium> so i think it's doable, just not what we're looking for ultimately as the way to present contributions
[13:47] <Virginia> I use tags to organize Torah-portion-related material on my blog, which is theoretically timeless
[13:47] <Shmueli> as a side project ive begun to work on an Edut haMizrach text, i've been looking many siddurim and comparing to see the direction im gonna go. its funny after working with the Chabad siddur for a long time where there are very few kavannot extra readings the Edut haMizrach text is like a flood of them
[13:47] <aharonium> but i don't think we should wait until the web application we're developing is ready before beginning to promote contributions and sharing
[13:48] <EfraimDF> which edot hamizrah text have you been looking at?
[13:48] <aharonium> also, i am very open to allow open siddur users to register and contribute directly on the opensiddur.org website
[13:48] <EfraimDF> (I actually would like to find a text to scan and put up)
[13:49] <EfraimDF> is that any different in complexity from signing up and uploading to the wiki?
[13:49] <aharonium> for now folks can upload material to the website at http://opensiddur.org/contribute/upload/
[13:49] <EfraimDF> basically, what you're looking for is a temporary database with indexing
[13:49] <Shmueli> see thats the problem, i need a histori text. so far ive been taking all the major siddurim like Siddur Ish Matzliach and backwards trackign their sources like the siddur or rav emden and ben ish chai and peacing it together
[13:50] <Virginia> From the non-tech person in the group, I second what Aharan said about not waiting for application -- I think what I found confusing at first. I am becoming relatively used to uploading text.
[13:50] <EfraimDF> I agree there
[13:50] <aharonium> ad users can register here: http://opensiddur.org/wp-login.php?action=register
[13:50] <EfraimDF> Don't wait...
[13:50] <EfraimDF> The question was directed toward fragmentation and finding material
[13:51] <aharonium> thanks Virginia for sharing that
[13:51] <Virginia> So, I think the best thing now is for me to sign off now, talk to Fabrangen and zoo people and find some good texts to share. Look forward to more conversation and project growing.
[13:51] <EfraimDF> Shmueli, I think I found a good base text (though I dont have a scan yet) for Western Sephardic (Spanish Portuguese)
[13:52] <aharonium> thank you so much! also, please accept my friend request on facebook
[13:52] <EfraimDF> Thanks for talking to us, Virginia!
[13:52] <Virginia> sure! nice to "meet" you all. shavua tov
[13:53] <Shmueli> @Efraim, ohhh that sounds really exiting im sure that would be something fascinating to study
[13:53] <Shmueli> nice to meet you too! :)
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[13:55] <EfraimDF> The 1903 edition of DeSola/Gaster's Siddur Hatephilloth
[13:55] <aharonium> we should search for that again at google books and the internet archive
[13:56] <aharonium> it might be available now
[13:56] <Shmueli> one of the headaches so far is having to admit to myself that if i expect to complete a Edut haMizrach text im gonna spend a lot of time transribing page after page of Ben Ish Chai and Zohar :)
[13:56] <EfraimDF> Google Books doesn't have it
[13:56] <aharonium> the zohar should already be transcribed somewhere... whatever the transcription is, it just needs to be proofed against the image of the text
[13:57] <EfraimDF> (they have a record.... they don't have a scan)
[13:57] <Shmueli> aharon, im sure ur right. i gotta just do some searching im sure.
[13:58] <EfraimDF> Have you tried transcription on the wiki at all (or is the documentation just overwhelming and you gave up there)?
[13:59] <EfraimDF> by the way, it's not that I love the wiki...
[14:00] <Shmueli> whats funny is up until now ive treated my approach of Nusach Ari as a method of getting through the day, like one should just seemlessly going through it all. Edut haMizrach is turning out more like "this is all the options you have available to you" it is broad with a lot of suggestions
[14:01] <Shmueli> i havent tried the wiki yet. no
[14:01] <EfraimDF> the advantages of the wiki are: - it allows us to see works in progress, to proofread simultaneously w/transcription, and to import directly to our web application-under-construction
[14:01] <EfraimDF> we also may be able to save you some typing:
[14:01] <Shmueli> i gotta become aquainted with it
[14:01] <EfraimDF> we have a full tanach text which can be referenced
[14:01] <EfraimDF> instead of copied
[14:02] <EfraimDF> one way to handle Nusah Edot Hamizrah might be to choose one variant
[14:02] <EfraimDF> (an early one?)
[14:02] <EfraimDF> then transcribe regional differences from that
[14:02] <EfraimDF> *off of that
[14:03] <aharonium> Hi sslivko, when you're ready just jump right in by introducing yourself. lurking is ok too, i got your email
[14:04] <aharonium> i would really like to also have other texts that can be directly references like the talmud and sifrei kabbalah, but that will have to come later, alas
[14:04] <EfraimDF> one thing at a time :-)
[14:05] <Shmueli> yeah i can see the benefit over typing tanach quotes. the only thing that bugs me about importing sometimes is the dreaded holam issues hahaha
[14:05] <EfraimDF> I figured out how to fix that!
[14:05] <Shmueli> THANK G-D hahahaha
[14:05] <EfraimDF> if you're talking about the holam haser for vav issue
[14:07] <EfraimDF> for now, just type using a holam for both. a computer will try to decide what's the correct holam to use
[14:07] <EfraimDF> so far, I've only found *one* word where the computer fails
[14:07] <Shmueli> nice. very nice
[14:08] <aharonium> looking at most outside transcriptions the issue i see foremost is the lack of meteg
[14:09] <EfraimDF> (the word, in case you're interested, is ??????, meaning a dry place, not ???????, Zion)
[14:09] <Shmueli> ohhh yes. that is def an issue
[14:10] <EfraimDF> I'll bet a lot of people would pronounce that wrong.
[14:16] <Shmueli> brb coffee is fading :)
[14:16] <EfraimDF> ok
[14:21] <Shmueli> ok back
[14:22] <EfraimDF> wb
[14:22] <EfraimDF> Anyway, is there any way we can help you with what you're doing?
[14:24] <Shmueli> Right now i think the next direction i need to take is to spend more time with the chabad shabbat liturgy and then shelosh regalim. which means nothing more than putting in the work of piecing what i have together and transcribing what im missing. i think im good
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[14:25] <EfraimDF> cool
[14:25] <aharonium> Hello Noah!
[14:25] <EfraimDF> hi Noah
[14:25] <Shmueli> see so far a lot of my work has been to make stuff that is for weekday use, obviously for the needs of people that are shomer shabbat this comes first. but the truth is we need to tackle shabbat and the holidays because thats what the congregations and havurah groups are gonna really need most
[14:25] <Shmueli> hey Noah
[14:26] <noahmarks> hello all
[14:26] <aharonium> R' Kaunfer recommended Noah talk with us about free culture licensed digital material for a friday night siddur they're preparing over at Swarthmore
[14:26] <aharonium> is that correct?
[14:26] <noahmarks> yes
[14:26] <noahmarks> specifically, kabbalat shabbat for now
[14:27] <aharonium> Shmueli is on the list now and he has done quite a bit of work on that
[14:27] <aharonium> Efraim can speak to the work done getting a translation ready
[14:27] <EfraimDF> How much of it are we missing?
[14:27] <EfraimDF> Well, the text is usable
[14:27] <EfraimDF> The database aspect is a way off
[14:27] <noahmarks> Shmueli and Efraim....any and all help/advice is much appreciated
[14:28] <EfraimDF> There are a few questions here:
[14:28] <EfraimDF> (1) How much of the Hebrew has been transcribed and proofread?
[14:28] <EfraimDF> (2) How much of the English do we have?
[14:28] <sslivko> sslivko, newbie, checking in. What is free culture?
[14:28] <EfraimDF> (3) What applications do we have to handle it?
[14:28] <aharonium> we have shir hashirim, yedid nefesh, all the psalms, ana b'koach, lcha dodi, bameh madlikin, k'gavneh (untranslated), and maariv
[14:29] <EfraimDF> on 1-- I'd have to check the answer to that. I think we have most of it at least transcribed
[14:29] <aharonium> i think that's the main issue
[14:29] <EfraimDF> on 2-- we have a separate English translation from the Singer Siddur
[14:29] <EfraimDF> on 3-- we've got a way to go there
[14:29] <aharonium> we have material transcribed but not all of the text has meteg
[14:29] <aharonium> also
[14:30] <EfraimDF> The idea for someone who wants to have something now (like you presumably do)
[14:30] <EfraimDF> would be that we provide you with the texts
[14:30] <aharonium> we haven't answered the shva na/nach qamatz qatan/gadol issue for our transliteration
[14:30] <Shmueli> when it comes to kabbalat shabbat im sure that just about everything is transribed ive pieced it together in the past couple days and just need to proof it
[14:30] <EfraimDF> and at this point you'd be on your own with respect to laying it out
[14:31] <noahmarks> right that is fine. Swarthmore has a lot of applications for such things, i believe
[14:31] <EfraimDF> For transliteration, we could get you a first-pass through an automated transliterator (after you tell us what style you'd like to use!)
[14:31] <EfraimDF> which will be wrong in one critical way...
[14:32] <aharonium> @sslivko, free culture refers to created work that is available either in the Public Domain or through certain "free culture licenses" for free modification and adaptation by others
[14:32] <Shmueli> yeah as im looking over my text i have pretty much everything, including petiach eliyahu etc
[14:32] <noahmarks> what are the options for "styles" of transliterations
[14:33] <noahmarks> the swarthmore community isnt that religious, so even just yedid nefesh, psalms, lecha dodi, ana b'koach and maybe a part of the mishna (or we may put in our own...unclear) would be good
[14:33] <EfraimDF> Right now, I've written a basic approximation of modern Hebrew, adapted one based on the Strong's dictionary (an old Christian-origin Biblical Hebrew dictionary), and SBL-academic style
[14:33] <aharonium> @sslivko work that is under copyright (kol zchuyot shomrot -- all rights reserved) can be relicensed to allow only some rights reserved and thereby free up that material into a creative commons
[14:34] <EfraimDF> I believe we have all of that?
[14:34] <noahmarks> ok. would it be possible to send me an example of both styles for one prayer (yedid nefesh maybe?)
[14:34] <sslivko> gracias, a
[14:34] <EfraimDF> The styles are customizable, so, don't think it's all we've got :-)
[14:34] <EfraimDF> can you email me a reminder?
[14:35] <aharonium> @sslivko for a non-proprietary collaborative and creative effort we need to share freely and modify each others work (but with attribution!)
[14:35] <noahmarks> sure what is your email?
[14:35] <EfraimDF> (you'll also see where the computer will get it wrong, which is why I havent released this in public)
[14:35] <EfraimDF> efraim.feinstein@gmail.com
[14:36] <sslivko> legally sound and lehavi geulah le'olam.
[14:36] <noahmarks> sent
[14:36] <aharonium> @sslivko the Creative Commons Attribution Share-Alike license is a free culture license that requires attribution to be preserved, and a chain of attribution to be maintained in all derivative work
[14:36] <EfraimDF> This page and the following page have the text of lcha dodi (ashkenaz) http://wiki.jewishliturgy.org/Page:Seder-Avodat-Yisrael_000104.jpg
[14:37] <aharonium> @sslivko but that license is otherwise a legal statement by the creator of the work explicitly permitting the free modification and adaptation of the work
[14:38] <EfraimDF> (there are minor textual variants in nusah sfard)
[14:39] <aharonium> @sslivko of course, such modification is already permitted for work that has already entered the Public Domain. But given that recently copyrighted work won't enter the Public Domain for the lifetime of the creator plus 70 years, it's critical that a work intended to be shared be relicensed with a free culture license
[14:40] <aharonium> @sslivko so our question to folks working on Jewish liturgy (translations, commentaries, liturgies, etc.) is, what was your intention for this work? When did you hope this work might be adopted and adapted by Tradition (ie, the Mesorah)?
[14:40] <EfraimDF> actually, it looks like we've got most of maariv from avodat yisrael + tanach transcribed but not proofread
[14:40] <noahmarks> ok. we are pretty exclusively neusach askenaz
[14:41] <aharonium> you might still want to think through where to include (or not include) bameh madlikin
[14:41] <noahmarks> ok
[14:41] <aharonium> or to substitute a text like k'gavneh for it
[14:41] <sslivko> Or other mishnaic text...
[14:42] <aharonium> interesting. what would you suggest Sidney?
[14:42] <EfraimDF> ?????? is much harder to understand than ??? ???????:-)
[14:42] <sslivko> ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ???...
[14:42] <EfraimDF> RTL issue --
[14:42] <EfraimDF> that came out exactly backwards
[14:42] <sslivko> ???? ???????????
[14:42] <aharonium> i feel exactly the opposite Efraim
[14:43] <sslivko> oops -- avot melachot...
[14:43] <EfraimDF> k'gavna harder than bameh madlikin
[14:43] <aharonium> but this is why we have an open siddur
[14:44] <noahmarks> ok :)
[14:44] <aharonium> understanding women dying at childbirth for not tithing dough properly is harder for me to understand than imagining the manifest oneness of creation mirroring the transcendent infinite oneness of the source of creation
[14:45] <Shmueli> LOL
[14:45] <aharonium> go figure!
[14:46] <aharonium> btw, i really think Artscroll's translation of k'gavneh shines here
[14:46] <aharonium> we could probably create our own unique translation by comparing Artscroll with Pritzker and some other translations
[14:47] <Shmueli> really? i gotta look up rabbi artscroll then!
[14:47] <EfraimDF> I meant the words. As for the mishnah you refer to, I have an interpretation of it which many people would probably not like: it's theodicy.
[14:47] <aharonium> So Sidney, tell me more about how you found our project and how you might like to work with it?
[14:48] <aharonium> how can we help you and by our helping you help the project become more interesting and useful
[14:49] <aharonium> and noah, do we have a deadline?
[14:49] <noahmarks> well it would be good to have the text by the last week in agusut (first week of classes)
[14:50] <aharonium> and i'm wondering if you or anyone you know at swarthmore can help us proof the text you'll be using
[14:50] <noahmarks> yes
[14:50] <EfraimDF> that would definitely be helpful
[14:50] <noahmarks> there is a rabbi who runs the swarthmore beit midrash, and myself, and a hillel director (rabbinical student)
[14:50] <EfraimDF> making sure we have everything you need and that it's all corrected
[14:51] <aharonium> any donation large or small is welcome, certainly in-kind labor in getting the text ready is more useful than cash
[14:52] <Shmueli> oh yes... i see what you mean about kigavneh
[14:52] <aharonium> i think if Hillel gets involved it would be great
[14:52] <noahmarks> ok
[14:52] <noahmarks> yeah i am on the hille board/in charge of friday night services so it is definitely involved
[14:52] <EfraimDF> at this point (~1 month left), direct contributions of time/labor are more likely to get the work done faster
[14:53] <noahmarks> ok
[14:53] <aharonium> because whatever Swarthmore creates, it becomes available for any other Hillel chapter to modify and adapt
[14:53] <sslivko> Found it via facebook. Jury still out on my contribution and I want to learn more about what you guys are planning (still struggling with the kevah/kavannah/lo titgodedu issues even though I feel that we all need to put ourselves into the tefillah even at the expense of the matbe'ah (I still have goosebumps over reciting kegavne which at the time sounded like so much mumbo jumbo, even today, when I understand it better.)
[14:54] <EfraimDF> What we're doing here is not necessarily at the expense of the matbe'ah
[14:55] <sslivko> E - I know, and I appreciate that. In fact, it may be closer
[14:56] <sslivko> I am interested in seeing where it goes, and maybe put in a couple of cents or 2 as I go along until I feel I have something more significant to contribute.
[14:56] <aharonium> i'd love communities that are not familiar withthe matbeiah to see it and see the variations in it
[14:56] <sslivko> ditto.
[14:57] <Shmueli> would see so as so monumental is to give people a broad range of jewish tradition to work with. that really excites me
[14:57] <aharonium> and i'd love communities unfamiliar with Jewish liturgies that were never incorporated into the matbeiah to at least access them
[14:57] <aharonium> there is plenty in the siddur that is not part of the matbeiah
[14:57] <EfraimDF> One thing we don't want to be is anyone's posek :-)
[14:57] <aharonium> but is in the table of contents
[14:57] <sslivko> Chinese menu?
[14:57] <aharonium> for example, chapters on various blessings for different circumstances
[14:58] <EfraimDF> I think the "chinese menu" analogy presupposes as fact something which isn't:
[14:58] <aharonium> what is a chinese menu?
[14:59] <EfraimDF> that there is one absolute set text any variation on it is something bad (picking and choosing)
[14:59] <EfraimDF> it's an analogy that's used as a pejorative term
[14:59] <sslivko> Chinese menu with substitutions allowed (see reconstructionst siddur)
[15:00] <sslivko> I don't see it pejorative, merely descriptive of choice -- anything is OK as long as it's on the menu -- so we broaden the menu
[15:01] <Shmueli> i see it this way, we have a lot of liturgy that just isnt known to people. i can open siddurim and show a liturgy for every needs or any time of day. like are you up all night, good i got tikkuen chatzot for you. up too early, i got tikknei leah for... is there a brit mila, want to incorporate a prayer that is sensitive to the needs of women in prayer, lets start with tefillat hannah, etc. let people see there is a lot that is
[15:01] <aharonium> my vision for the web application we are building is a tool to design one's own siddur and that siddur could be a reconstruction of a 14th century Ashkenazic text with influence from the Mahzor Vitry and commentary from the Sefer Abduraham
[15:01] <EfraimDF> ok, glad you see it that way (most people I've heard use it to say `they're turning tefillah (kodesh) into a chinese menu (hol)`
[15:02] <Shmueli> no pork fried rice here lol
[15:02] <sslivko> That's where substitutions come in..
[15:02] <aharonium> all the chinese restaurants i go to are holy vegetarian or vegan restaurants run by Taoists or Buddhists
[15:02] <aharonium> barukh hashem, for them
[15:04] <Shmueli> geeezz... now i feel like taking the train to west LA. for a spicey Shalom Hunnan Plate
[15:04] <Shmueli> ;)
[15:04] <aharonium> alternately, i imagine someone could create a Karaite Siddur and compare Karaite liturgy with other work from the same period
[15:04] <aharonium> yum!
[15:04] <sslivko> IFood for thought, guys. Order in.
[15:04] <aharonium> yum, Shaom Hunnan, not yum Karaite
[15:05] <aharonium> the thing is that when it comes to denominational liturgy, that work is copyrighted text unless it is shared through relicensing
[15:06] <aharonium> so unfortunately, so many of these hidushim are unavailable to us to share, compare, modify, adapt, etc.
[15:06] <aharonium> at least, not within the application and public database we're creting
[15:07] <aharonium> what people do with their fair use rights is not something we police
[15:07] <Shmueli> see thats one think that i wonder, i live in the burbs and all they have out here is reform shuls, its hard for them to see the point when what they want is a Mishakan Tefillah or something of that sort.
[15:07] <EfraimDF> You should read David Wilensky's blog :-)
[15:08] <aharonium> where is David Wilensky. He was looking to provide some early reform texts. There's this great work by Eric Friedlander about the development of Jewish liturgy that we all need to read
[15:08] <Shmueli> now truth be told ive had my hands on an Israeli reform siddur before that was thick, and wasnt a whole lot different that a traditional siddur. sure there were variations but it wasnt a big stretch from traditional teffilah. we dont really have something like that here
[15:09] <EfraimDF> It depends on the tastes of the community and what they're offered
[15:09] <EfraimDF> Denominational prayer books tend to be centrally controlled
[15:10] <sslivko> Besides a compendium of various traditions, what's being done to give this a chance to evolve in the communities?
[15:10] <EfraimDF> (which is why Siddur Eit Ratzon is popular in the same market as Mishkan Tefillah)
[15:10] <EfraimDF> In the big picture, there are really 2 components:
[15:10] <EfraimDF> (1) compiling traditional texts (2) compiling original works
[15:11] <EfraimDF> We have a chance to shine with both of these
[15:11] <EfraimDF> of course, the more people working on them, the faster we can make something compelling enough for people to want to look at what we have to offer.
[15:12] <Shmueli> siddur eit ratzon is def a very likeable work in the way that its laid out and touches the text on many levels
[15:12] <EfraimDF> Any individual could then combine together aspects of both. Note that including original works does not mean taking away
[15:13] <EfraimDF> Right now, there is no free translation of the siddur to base future works off of!
[15:13] <EfraimDF> that is, free and modern
[15:13] <aharonium> i'd add a third component
[15:13] <EfraimDF> or, rather, free and contemporary
[15:14] <aharonium> Advocacy, since we are modeling best practices in sharing resources at a time when even Public Domain work is being restricted through end user license agreements
[15:14] <Shmueli> yes. that is a problem. i mean that is something i would kinda dread having to do, translating, i get told often by people when they read my divrei torah "you translate the Torah from Israeli, why do you do that?" lol meaning i dont sound majestic enough, sometimes people like majestic more than clear and sensable
[15:16] <Shmueli> its not that i have anything against the word "wroth" for instance, but honestly who talks that way ;)
[15:16] <aharonium> it's so interesting how these sorts of aesthetic concerns really reflect individuals very personal relationship with tradition and their expectations for an autentic religious experience
[15:16] <sslivko> Don't sweat it, Shmueli, think Hillel.
[15:16] <aharonium> aesthetics are important and they are deep, that is why design is so personal
[15:17] <aharonium> rooted in tradition, open for invention
[15:17] <sslivko> (& dibra torah belashon bnei adam.
[15:18] <EfraimDF> Thou thinkest that the Lord speakest not in the way of King James?
[15:19] <Shmueli> like once week i spent the whole week having to justify to my grandma why in certain places i translated with the "tamim" the way i did in various sections of a davar torah. :) ironic i know
[15:19] <sslivko> And moshe wore a kapoteh & shtreimel.
[15:19] <Shmueli> yes, as he ate cholent i know ;)
[15:20] <sslivko> NU, so we have something in common!
[15:21] <sslivko> Must go, hevra. This is Torah but I have a floor to tile (and that's derekh eretz) Shavua tov & tu b'Av sameach. I will follow this conversation offline.
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[15:21] <EfraimDF> Anything else we should cover?
[15:23] <aharonium> Noah?
[15:23] <aharonium> @noahmarks?
[15:24] <aharonium> i think we're good for now. Thanks again to EfraimDF for being my co-pilot
[15:24] <Shmueli> well it seems like at least for me im still at the place of transcribing/pieicing/proofing. i will keep Aharon updated with my ODTs along the way
[15:24] <EfraimDF> ok -- if possible, see if you can upload to the wiki
[15:24] <EfraimDF> even if you don't put in the tags
[15:25] <aharonium> getting material ready for Noah seems like a good focus for us, since there are a lot of blessings that can rise out of that
[15:25] <aharonium> even if the text isn't fully proofread
[15:25] <Shmueli> absolutely
[15:25] <aharonium> it can come with the caveat that it needs some proofreading
[15:25] <EfraimDF> he's using nusah ashkenaz
[15:25] <EfraimDF> We have most of the text done, just needs proofing
[15:26] <EfraimDF> Only part I'm not sure about is Yedid Nefesh (I dont even have a good source for the uncorrupted version)
[15:26] <Shmueli> Aharon did i send you yedid nefesh?
[15:26] <EfraimDF> it might be in Shmueli's stuff...
[15:27] <Shmueli> im looking through my schtuff to see its in there
[15:27] <EfraimDF> I can proof it against Torah Or. I don't think it was in German Ashkenazic nusah :-)
[15:27] <EfraimDF> or, rather it can be proofed against Torah Or
[15:27] <aharonium> @shmueli no
[15:28] <Shmueli> ok ill see if i can find it, i know i gotta have it somewhere
[15:30] <Shmueli> oh yes i do. just gotta proof it. very good
[15:32] <EfraimDF> First step there is to proofread...
[15:32] <EfraimDF> Noah -- have you figured out how to do proofreading on the texts we've got?
[15:45] <Shmueli> well im off, i have some things to do today. but its really great to share like this, we gotta do it again soon :)
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