IRC Conference/logs/2009-12-20

From Open Siddur Project Development Wiki

Conference log for the Dec 20, 2009 chat. See the summary for discussed topics. Questions or comments should be directed to the discussion list.

(10:57:17 AM) natalieLG [i=42a7fa7a@gateway/web/freenode/x-uelyvhbaoglazdnj] entered the room.
(10:57:32 AM) realazthat: EfraimDF: jetty is working
(10:57:35 AM) realazthat: hi
(10:58:18 AM) EfraimDF: hi
(10:58:22 AM) EfraimDF: cool!
(10:58:44 AM) natalieLG: what now? I've never really used live chat except from a support service briefly, but I hope I can somehow participate
(10:58:57 AM) EfraimDF: we're going to start pretty soon.
(10:59:24 AM) EfraimDF: basically, we all talk.  If you have any questions/comments/relevant things to add/suggested topics, just type it
(10:59:57 AM) yrosen[afk] is now known as yrosen
(10:59:57 AM) EfraimDF: we're usually about 10m late in starting up (Jewish standard time and all)
(11:00:11 AM) yrosen: ok back
(11:00:14 AM) EfraimDF: wb
(11:00:17 AM) yrosen: ty
(11:00:24 AM) natalieLG: It's just not clear to me what we will be doing. I read the article that you suggested, and thought there were interesting ideas on "both sides" of the value of the project. My concern is that
(11:00:24 AM) yrosen: so how many people are usually in this chan?
(11:00:42 AM) EfraimDF: usually, meaning on an average day?  
(11:01:14 AM) EfraimDF: My name sits in the channel all the time.  Most of the time, it's alone.
(11:01:16 AM) yrosen: well...by a meeting time
(11:01:24 AM) EfraimDF: oh -- on time, usually not many
(11:01:33 AM) EfraimDF: we've had between 6-12
(11:01:58 AM) EfraimDF: @natalieLG -- your sentence got cut off
(11:02:40 AM) yrosen: ah
(11:03:13 AM) EfraimDF: the agenda tends to be pretty fluid
(11:03:37 AM) natalieLG: oh - lost my train of thought for a moment, but my concern long-range is that people who aren't particularly  grounded in what the siddur is or has been over time will be "contributing" things that have no basis in Judaism; in other words, I'm not an elitist, but I do hope participants will be knowledgeable Jews.
(11:04:08 AM) EfraimDF: That's an issue of any project that attempts to crowdsource materials
(11:04:35 AM) EfraimDF: To some degree, everyone will have to do some choosing on their own, but we do have the means to help people out with that
(11:04:38 AM) Aharon [n=chatzill@ool-182e4348.dyn.optonline.net] entered the room.
(11:04:39 AM) natalieLG: Never heard that word before - crowdsource - but I love it!
(11:04:50 AM) yrosen: isn't that what you were saying the other day, realazthat ?
(11:05:07 AM) EfraimDF: Content that comes in ends up in a big pool
(11:05:16 AM) yrosen: you could do some sort of version control (e.g. like a wiki)
(11:05:28 AM) EfraimDF: that pool is considered unedited and caveat emptor and all
(11:05:53 AM) realazthat: yrosen: the eXist database we use to store the data
(11:06:12 AM) realazthat: yrosen: supports version control in the upcoming version
(11:06:18 AM) yrosen: oh right
(11:06:21 AM) EfraimDF: natalieLG: A group of volunteers known as the "Core Content Group" will be looking over content as it comes in to make sure it adheres to project policy
(11:06:28 AM) EfraimDF: natalieLG: note that project policy is not ideological
(11:06:30 AM) realazthat: yrosen: but we have not used it yet
(11:06:42 AM) yrosen: mhrm...
(11:07:32 AM) Aharon: hi everyone
(11:07:33 AM) EfraimDF: natalieLG: all that it does, is make sure that anything that makes it into the core distribution is reasonably well written, follows technical policy, has its sources cited, doesn't violate anyone's IP and such
(11:07:36 AM) EfraimDF: Aharon: hi
(11:08:12 AM) EfraimDF: natalieLG: if a comment that comes in has no basis in anything, it will likely be rejected for core content
(11:08:24 AM) realazthat: Aharon: hi
(11:08:38 AM) realazthat: IP meaning intellectual property
(11:08:54 AM) EfraimDF: natalieLG: if it does have basis, and you just disagree with it, it will probably get in, and you can choose to exclude it from your own siddur
(11:09:05 AM) Aharon: Hi natalieLG! Thanks so much for joining us :)
(11:09:26 AM) EfraimDF: natalieLG: To help with that, we intend to have some default siddurim that basically serve as examples
(11:09:37 AM) natalieLG: Cool!
(11:09:49 AM) EfraimDF: natalieLG: and are editable to the extent that anyone can build off them
(11:10:23 AM) EfraimDF: We're now at 11JST
(11:10:54 AM) yrosen: "and now please turn to page 385 in the GNU/Artscroll for torah reading...."
(11:11:21 AM) realazthat: lol
(11:11:29 AM) natalieLG: This process is a little confusing to me since it seems everyone is talking at once & there is almost no chance to reply to particular comments before something else appears; part of my problem is I am from a different generation than I suspect most of you are. Just can't think that fast!
(11:11:35 AM) EfraimDF: Just so we know who's here, if you don't mind, please introduce yourself and your interest in the project.
(11:11:47 AM) Aharon: even if something is not in the core content, it should still be sharable as a feed of user (or group) generated content to anyone else in the Open Siddur subscribing to it
(11:11:47 AM) EfraimDF: natalieLG: you get used to it :-)
(11:12:27 AM) Aharon: the Core Content Group is like any other group except it's feed of content is shared by default to everyone
(11:12:33 AM) EfraimDF: I am Efraim Feinstein, lead developer -- I have my paws in all parts of the project.
(11:13:27 AM) yrosen: I'm Yudi Rosen, realazthat  knows me in person. I'm interested in contributing to the project but I'm just a plain old webdev, and hoping to learn a bit more while helping. I can be reached by email or facebook.
(11:13:30 AM) EfraimDF: Primarily, I'm working on the backend (XML specifications and XSLT transforms)
(11:13:53 AM) yrosen: I think realazthat  drafted me to the frontend (UI and such)
(11:14:00 AM) realazthat: I am Azriel Fasten, I administer the wiki, and try to make practical use of Efraim's backend work
(11:14:03 AM) realazthat: yes
(11:14:05 AM) realazthat: ;)
(11:15:13 AM) realazthat: I will soon have an updated demo
(11:15:24 AM) Aharon: I am Aharon Varady. I founded the Open Siddur Project and do pretty much everything now that doesn't involve coding, yet
(11:16:57 AM) EfraimDF: natalieLG?
(11:17:06 AM) natalieLG: Great idea! Aharon, I recall that you are one of the originators of this project, or whatever the proper designation is, and I know there were a couple of others. Efraim, are you one of the main developers as well? me - just a "Jew in the pew," so to speak. I am in a Reconstructionist Jew who is already quite lost with the various acro acronymns you are are tossing out there. Maybe I should bow out for a while and then r
(11:17:36 AM) Aharon: please don't
(11:18:22 AM) EfraimDF: natalieLG: I wrote the proof of concept code for what was going to be called the "Jewish Liturgy Project", and Azriel joined my project to Aharon's, and we've reworked the code since then
(11:18:58 AM) EfraimDF: natalieLG: if we say something you dont understand, just ask
(11:19:21 AM) Aharon: I had a grand vision for the Open Siddur about ten years ago, but there were many technical problems I couldn't get surpass
(11:19:55 AM) Aharon: UI = user interface, i.e, a web application
(11:20:58 AM) EfraimDF: (I will try to contain my acronym usage)
(11:21:27 AM) natalieLG: Well, I do appreciate being welcomed, but I don't even know basic HTML or what a code is, etc. - and what I could possibly contribute, much as I am interested in how technology might - just possibly - influence the prayer life of "ordinary" people...
(11:21:29 AM) Aharon: it's a good exercise. similar to avoiding yeshivish in a pluralistic environment
(11:22:00 AM) Aharon: that's cool. I saw on facebook you went to Gratz college
(11:22:19 AM) EfraimDF: probably the easiest way for someone without technical background to get involved is through transcribing texts or proofreading them
(11:23:16 AM) natalieLG: 'Should have said my full name. I'm Natalie Gorvine. Indeed. I have a BHL from there, from probably before you were born.
(11:23:37 AM) EfraimDF: Which is a good segue to one announcement
(11:23:42 AM) Aharon: it's true, but we always need help simply expanding the network of folk who are informed about the project
(11:24:19 AM) Aharon: Saul wachs is there and I think his specialization is Jewish liturgy education
(11:24:29 AM) EfraimDF: Probably, the most common public domain (out of copyright) Jewish translation of the bible (tanach) is the 1917 JPS (Jewish Publication Society) translation
(11:24:36 AM) natalieLG: Efraim: I am considered something of a demon proofreader, & yes, that is something I could do down the road (The only stuff I'm not good at proofreading is my own work, of course.)
(11:25:27 AM) Aharon: awesome
(11:25:47 AM) EfraimDF: The 1917 JPS is not particularly exciting in and of itself, other than for its historical interest (it's published in a lot of places, including the ubiquitous Hertz chumash)
(11:26:40 AM) EfraimDF: There is one online transcription of it, but the transcriber claims a "new copyright" on the electronic version with restrictions that make it unusable for free projects like ours
(11:27:31 AM) EfraimDF: We will soon be announcing an initiative to complete the transcription started at http://sacred-texts.com/bib/jps
(11:27:53 AM) EfraimDF: in cooperation with that site
(11:27:58 AM) natalieLG: I know Saul Wachs. Is he involved with this work? It's hard for me to picture that, but why not?  I'm lost again. Why are we  (you) talking about the JPS 1917 translation of T'Nach when there are much more readable versions, including from JPS?
(11:28:34 AM) EfraimDF: It's in the public domain (out of copyright).  JPS still owns the copyright on the new JPS, so it won't be freely distributable until sometime next century
(11:29:51 AM) EfraimDF: The transcription process will basically involve correcting computer-generated transcriptions
(11:30:02 AM) Aharon: that's right. we would love to use a more contemporary translation to start with, however, licensing the intellectual property of translations for money is an important part of many Jewish institutional business models, alas
(11:30:07 AM) EfraimDF: to online images of pages from the 1917 edition 
(11:30:07 AM) natalieLG: Oh. Copyright issues are complex, I know. I spent more than 2 decades working in a medical library and was fascinated by some of the arguments re intellectual property as more online resources came into use over time.
(11:30:44 AM) joel [i=5dac7de3@gateway/web/freenode/x-bxkcfwyqvnujabix] entered the room.
(11:30:45 AM) EfraimDF: Once we have a proper and correct transcription of the 1917 edition -- which is archaic, but reasonably accurate
(11:30:53 AM) EfraimDF: (hi joel, please introduce yourself!)
(11:31:09 AM) EfraimDF: we can work on a new, modern and free translation
(11:31:23 AM) EfraimDF: which will be under a liberal copyright license 
(11:31:24 AM) natalieLG: Welcome Joel.
(11:31:29 AM) Aharon: part of the core of our mission is proving just how vibrant jewish culture and religion would be if we used reciprocal licensing like those provided by the Creative Commons, (e.g., CC-BY-SA)
(11:32:08 AM) natalieLG: Lost yet again. No idea what Creative Commons is / are, but sounds good anyway.
(11:32:13 AM) joel: joel katz. friend of Aharon. just interested.
(11:32:29 AM) Aharon: there are so many wonderful and inventive hiddushim that are completely obscure because they're bottled up in a limited printed siddur
(11:32:54 AM) Aharon: and forgive me, a chiddush, is an innovation
(11:33:13 AM) EfraimDF: Creative Commons http://creativecommons.org is an organization that promotes free culture 
(11:33:40 AM) Aharon: the Creative Commons is an org that promotes free culture by suggesting more permissive copyright licenses
(11:33:47 AM) natalieLG: I really understand that aspect - that's what attracted me to check out what you had in mind in the first place.
(11:33:50 AM) EfraimDF: and one of the things they do is write standard copyright licenses that can be used by anyone else to facilitate sharing and remixing content
(11:33:51 AM) joel: i'll sign off and wish you guys much success!!
(11:34:03 AM) Aharon: instead of all rights reserved, some rights reserved
(11:34:08 AM) Aharon: bye Joel!
(11:34:12 AM) EfraimDF: (bye)
(11:34:13 AM) joel left the room (quit: Client Quit).
(11:35:27 AM) EfraimDF: I'm going to start using a pretag <tech> for technical talk
(11:35:34 AM) natalieLG: Thanks for letting me know about Creative Commons. I realize that I need to remember to respond to a specific person.
(11:35:51 AM) EfraimDF: <tech> If something contains this tag beforehand, you can ignore the text if you're not interested in the technical conversation
(11:36:10 AM) EfraimDF: <tech> Other conversations can continue at the same time
(11:36:27 AM) realazthat: EfraimDF: http://jewishliturgy.org/dump/recipe/recipe.htm
(11:36:30 AM) natalieLG: Excellent, EfraimDF. So, can I just skip those parts? See, you were answering my question before I could finish typing it. Thanks!
(11:36:32 AM) EfraimDF: <tech> If you're involved in the tech conversation, please tag your text beforehand
(11:36:34 AM) EfraimDF: yes
(11:36:45 AM) realazthat: yrosen: <tech> you can look at that too
(11:37:00 AM) EfraimDF: <tech> interesting, Azriel
(11:37:11 AM) Aharon: since copyright reserves all right to a created work for the life of the creator plus 70 years, we believe that's way too long for bringing material into our Jewish cultural commons to make for a vibrant creative engagement with texts that form the basis of communcal spirituality
(11:37:12 AM) yrosen: *click*
(11:37:16 AM) EfraimDF: <tech> I'll look in more detail after the chat
(11:37:24 AM) realazthat: yrosen: thats something how a recipe might be chosen
(11:37:37 AM) EfraimDF: A "recipe" is an order of the siddur
(11:37:46 AM) EfraimDF: (that sounds redundant, doesn't it?)
(11:37:48 AM) natalieLG: well said, Aharon. I agree.
(11:38:02 AM) yrosen: I see...
(11:38:11 AM) yrosen: and then it's modified for layout and whatnot?
(11:38:13 AM) Aharon: so thankfully, there are more permissive copyrights, like CC-BY-SA that protect the attribution for authors creating works in derivative works, but which allow for derivative works to be made
(11:38:26 AM) realazthat: yrosen: <tech> each island is a paragraph, verse, or any other section of any hierarchy of the text
(11:38:45 AM) realazthat: yrosen: <text> layout is done separatly, I think
(11:38:49 AM) EfraimDF: <tech> Yudi, probably the best way for you to make the fastest and most wide-ranging contribution
(11:39:04 AM) EfraimDF: <tech> is to get us a standard database-access API for our JS apps
(11:39:18 AM) Aharon: the only restriction of a permissive copyright like CC-BY-SA is that derivative works must also be licensed CC-BY-SA ensuring that attribution is maintained and that the process of keeping the work free is sustained
(11:39:32 AM) EfraimDF: <tech> Ilan, a dev who is not here, is working on the main transcription UI
(11:39:40 AM) yrosen: <tech> ok
(11:39:46 AM) EfraimDF: <tech> eventually, we will need a proofreading UI and encoding UI
(11:39:53 AM) EfraimDF: <tech> *all of them* will need db access
(11:40:15 AM) Aharon: More can be learned about "copyleft" at this well written wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyleft
(11:40:50 AM) EfraimDF: natalieLG: are you understanding what Aharon is saying? :-)
(11:41:06 AM) EfraimDF: <tech> Yudi: are you willing to learn a bit of XQuery?
(11:41:10 AM) natalieLG: Question about multi-tasking: How is it helpful to those of you on the tech end to have the more philosophical discussion happening online at the same time? Not sure I see how you wouldn't simply end up ignoring it as a distraction, much as I have started doing with your UI talk
(11:41:22 AM) yrosen: <tech> I've never used exist DB, but I'll take a look and see if I can come up with anything
(11:41:42 AM) Aharon: natalieLG: it's like currents in a river
(11:41:50 AM) natalieLG: Not really, Efraim.  Thanks for asking.
(11:42:05 AM) EfraimDF: For one thing, this discussion helps us present the project and lets us know what we need to make known to the wider public
(11:42:33 AM) EfraimDF: <tech> It's relatively easy to learn.  Azriel has examples of XQuery inside his Java code
(11:42:40 AM) natalieLG: This is a very swiftly moving river, Aharon. I may "swim" back to shore at any moment!
(11:42:59 AM) yrosen: <tech> EfraimDF: yes, I've started learning xquery already actually
(11:43:15 AM) Aharon: natalieLG: feel free to chat with me via facebook chat. skype or AIM/gmail chat are ok too
(11:43:58 AM) EfraimDF: One problem with being a tech guy is that you forget that not everyone knows the terminology you invented last week
(11:44:37 AM) EfraimDF: <tech> Yudi, do you know a good way to document JS code (similar to Javadoc)?
(11:44:54 AM) Aharon: natalieLG: although we will have to become friends via Facebook first for the chat to work there
(11:45:13 AM) yrosen: <tech> EfraimDF: Personally, I just do plain old comment blocks
(11:45:31 AM) yrosen: I don't think there is a good doc-style way, but as long as it's consistent and stands out...
(11:45:32 AM) natalieLG: May I be excused now? I don't mean to be impolite, but I think I can make better use of my time on something that I can really get into. Do try to find yourselves a female techie, though, to join up with you in the interim. I'm sure they're out there somewhere.
(11:45:35 AM) EfraimDF: <tech> Is there any way to expose the docs so that someone doesn't have to actually look through the code?
(11:45:39 AM) EfraimDF: No problem...
(11:46:05 AM) yrosen: <tech> Maybe mod phpdoc or something?
(11:46:12 AM) realazthat: JSDocs comes up on top of google
(11:46:22 AM) realazthat: JSDoc*
(11:46:53 AM) EfraimDF: <tech> I was thinking, so Ilan could figure out your API once it's up
(11:46:55 AM) Aharon: natalieLG: thanks for coming by this morning. again, very happy to chat more outside this format if that's easier
(11:47:18 AM) natalieLG: Aharon, you probaly will hear from again via FB &/or Gmail. I appreciate your responding in the midst of all the rest of the above. B'hatzlacha to everyone. L'hitra'ot!
(11:47:31 AM) EfraimDF: One more place you can talk in public --
(11:47:36 AM) natalieLG left the room (quit: "Page closed").
(11:47:41 AM) EfraimDF: nm
(11:47:44 AM) Aharon: too late
(11:48:23 AM) Yaakovsladder [i=47164338@gateway/web/freenode/x-gwmvhmllvgjswwsy] entered the room.
(11:48:32 AM) Aharon: we've had the same discussion re: the listserve. splitting our discussion into tech vs. non-tech groups
(11:48:33 AM) EfraimDF: << hi yaakov >>
(11:48:38 AM) Yaakovsladder: Hello
(11:48:49 AM) Aharon: good morning
(11:48:55 AM) EfraimDF: yeah, listserv is much easier to ignore email you don't want to read
(11:48:59 AM) Sara_ [i=44acfdd5@gateway/web/freenode/x-pzvetvruettlspds] entered the room.
(11:49:04 AM) EfraimDF: we don't have enough traffic yet to split it
(11:49:11 AM) Aharon: hi Sara!
(11:49:16 AM) Sara_: Hi
(11:49:29 AM) EfraimDF: hi sara 
(11:49:52 AM) EfraimDF: If you don't mind, please introduce yourselves, and tell us a bit about your interests in the project
(11:50:20 AM) Aharon: the big announcement efraim made earlier was that we've been able to find a complementary project working witht he 1917 JPS translation
(11:50:24 AM) realazthat: hi all
(11:50:47 AM) Sara_: I found out about it on facebook.  I am a teacher at Solomon Schechter, I am interested in teaching iyun tfillah.  I have actually been putting together children's siddurim in the past few years
(11:51:36 AM) yrosen: realazthat:: any chance that CSS is gonna get online? :p
(11:51:43 AM) Aharon: they've already finished proofreading the chumash for errors made by the automatic transcription. we're going to work on t'hillim. that should provide us a good basis for a more contemporary translation as needed
(11:52:33 AM) realazthat: yrosen: if he wakes up ;)
(11:52:48 AM) yrosen: lol
(11:53:02 AM) EfraimDF: realazthat: it's committed
(11:53:28 AM) Aharon: Yaakovsladder: please introduce yourself
(11:53:39 AM) Yaakovsladder left the room (quit: "Page closed").
(11:53:41 AM) realazthat: EfraimDF: ty
(11:54:13 AM) Aharon: hmm
(11:54:14 AM) EfraimDF: Sara: let me turn around to you -- what would you like to see that would help us?
(11:54:18 AM) EfraimDF: *help you
(11:54:58 AM) EfraimDF: *oy, that didn't come out right: help us help you? (there)
(11:55:08 AM) Aharon: i'd like to hear more about these children's siddurim too
(11:55:52 AM) Sara_: My siddur is called Siddur Sababa http://sabababooks.com
(11:55:56 AM) EfraimDF: (btw if something has a pretag <tech>, it's tech talk -- you can run simultaneous conversations -- if you're not interested in the tech talk, simply ignore anything with the <tech> pretag)
(11:56:22 AM) Sara_: I was just curious to learn what you're already doing in this project
(11:56:31 AM) Sara_: do you have a timeline for how it will be completed?
(11:56:33 AM) Aharon: hey!
(11:56:40 AM) Aharon: i know the Sababa Siddur
(11:56:48 AM) Aharon: that's wonderful
(11:57:31 AM) Aharon: friends told me about it when I was in Jerusalem this past summer.
(11:57:39 AM) EfraimDF: Sara: best I can say is "when it's ready" -- it depends a lot on how many coders we have and how many fingers we can get on keyboards
(11:57:57 AM) EfraimDF: Sara: I'm aiming to finish the backend code well within a year
(11:58:04 AM) Sara_: cool
(11:58:59 AM) EfraimDF: Sara: the user interface is in progress, but (naturally) slightly behind the backend in feature support (backend support is required before front end support can exist)
(11:59:07 AM) Aharon: alternately, if we succeed in raising some funds we should be able to contract certain jobs out and leap ahead that way
(12:01:21 PM) Aharon: besides in-kind contributions of coding time from programmer, we also receive donations of transcribed text from historic siddurim and manuscripts mand other modern created content that would otherwise be lost from the cultural comons due to copyright
(12:01:47 PM) Sara_: How many people are working on the project?
(12:02:35 PM) EfraimDF: Aharon does external relations, Azriel, Yudi, Ilan (not present) and I do coding
(12:02:48 PM) Aharon: at any one time it's 3 folk, but the number of one time contributors, proofreaders, transcribers, etc., fluxuates
(12:02:52 PM) shf [i=97cb32c9@gateway/web/freenode/x-jzwjsufpvddgrpuj] entered the room.
(12:03:06 PM) Aharon: good morning shf. please introduce yourself
(12:03:13 PM) shf: Hi
(12:03:16 PM) shf: Sorry I'm late - it's Shira
(12:03:17 PM) EfraimDF: We're hoping to get more people involved, particularly in the non-tech aspects of the project
(12:03:24 PM) EfraimDF: not everyone here knows you :-)
(12:03:54 PM) Aharon: ultimately this project is about getting the text s of the siddur available to people so they can make their own custom siddurim
(12:04:19 PM) shf: (Shira Fischer, Brookline MA, like others, interested in grammar and Torah and computers, but limited time, but would like to help more)
(12:04:22 PM) Aharon: and to do that we need to digitize the raw source texts of the siddur
(12:04:34 PM) EfraimDF: I'm actually somewhat interested in what particular features a childrens siddur would need that aren't in an adult siddur, since this wasn't one of my targets in designing the technology
(12:04:34 PM) yrosen: Sorry for not particularly being active btw, I'm still not awake and doing like 3 other things right now
(12:05:27 PM) Aharon: on that end we already have all the texts in the siddur that are in the TaNaKh, and all that we've transcribed from Seligmann Baer's Seder Avodat Yisrael (1868)
(12:06:00 PM) Aharon: thanks Shira!
(12:06:24 PM) EfraimDF: some history: shf was very, *very* patient in helping me get the proof of concept to build 
(12:06:45 PM) Aharon: awesome. thank you shf!
(12:07:23 PM) Sara_: In my weekday siddur that we use at Schechter, we do the majority of shacharit, an abbreviated pesukei dzimra
(12:07:33 PM) Aharon: we already have some pages from our transcription that are ready for proofreading
(12:07:37 PM) Sara_: we even do tachanun, torah service and musaf on rosh chodesh
(12:08:31 PM) EfraimDF: Aharon/anyone else interested in the proofing process: Should we start proofing on those texts now or transcribe more and wait until we can do double-keying?
(12:09:19 PM) Aharon: explain double-keying to everyone
(12:09:25 PM) EfraimDF: double-keying = having two copies of the text that were separately typed, comparing them and finding differences.  In theory, you can get very high accuracy because it's less likely two people will make the same mistake
(12:10:02 PM) Aharon: we're going to transcribe each page of the text twice?
(12:10:12 PM) Aharon: we could proof each page of the text twice
(12:10:27 PM) EfraimDF: proofreading by eye catches far fewer errors
(12:11:20 PM) Aharon: i don't think we should wait
(12:11:21 PM) EfraimDF: the problem with double-keying, of course, is that it requires 2x the amount of typing work
(12:11:38 PM) EfraimDF: The texts are stuck on the wiki until we have an encoding app anyway
(12:12:01 PM) Aharon: then folks should be proofing htem right now
(12:12:14 PM) EfraimDF: Two ways to go about continuing the process are: transcribe as much as possible in the first pass now
(12:13:06 PM) EfraimDF: try to proof whatever we have already transcribed.  I would *still* suggest double-keying at least some documents to quantify textual accuracy.
(12:13:46 PM) Aharon: i think we are overestimating the number of people who will volunteer to transcribe this siddur. we need to design a process that is practical
(12:13:53 PM) EfraimDF: We're also about to get some English texts to transcribe/proofread
(12:14:28 PM) Sara_: It's been great chatting, I look forward to learning more about this project
(12:14:59 PM) Aharon: Sara_ please connect with me via facebook or email
(12:15:28 PM) EfraimDF: Thanks for stopping by
(12:15:37 PM) yrosen: I'm willing to help a bit with transcribing
(12:15:41 PM) EfraimDF: Aharon: that is my worry about double keying
(12:15:49 PM) yrosen: I should say now that I'm not sure how much time I can commit, but I'll do my best
(12:16:00 PM) EfraimDF: yrosen: we have a set of transcription stuff ready and waiting on the wiki
(12:16:13 PM) Aharon: awesome. first thing to do is register a username on the wiki
(12:16:16 PM) EfraimDF: yrosen: there are about 400 more pages to go after that :-)
(12:16:18 PM) yrosen: limk?
(12:16:27 PM) EfraimDF: http://wiki.jewishliturgy.org/Transcription
(12:16:35 PM) shf: I like the double-keying later
(12:16:44 PM) shf: Better, but won't slow a first version
(12:17:15 PM) EfraimDF: ok, so, first pass proofread to ready-to-encode version
(12:17:38 PM) EfraimDF: Proofreaders will definitely have to have keen eyes
(12:18:04 PM) EfraimDF: In watching people (including myself) transcribe, the most common errors are pretty hard to spot 
(12:18:37 PM) EfraimDF: Ones that make nonsensical text might be easy to catch by computer -- missing shin/sin dots make non-letters
(12:18:56 PM) Aharon: dageshim are another matter
(12:19:07 PM) realazthat: EfraimDF: funny thing is
(12:19:08 PM) EfraimDF: But things like missing meteg/missing dagesh/copied from memory instead of copying text
(12:19:12 PM) EfraimDF: won't be caught
(12:19:25 PM) realazthat: EfraimDF: the current demo, Ruth.htm works with all three
(12:19:36 PM) EfraimDF: realazthat: all three what?
(12:19:44 PM) realazthat: EfraimDF: fonts
(12:19:51 PM) realazthat: EfraimDF: er
(12:19:54 PM) realazthat: EfraimDF: browsers
(12:20:12 PM) EfraimDF: realazthat: you have installed fonts?
(12:20:20 PM) Aharon: yrosen: let us know if you run into any troubles. using the wiki as our transcription interface is still something of a kluge
(12:20:22 PM) realazthat: EfraimDF: I am pretty sure not
(12:20:28 PM) yrosen: ok
(12:20:52 PM) EfraimDF: I'm probably going to remove some of the transcription guidelines
(12:20:56 PM) EfraimDF: because they can be fixed by computer
(12:21:45 PM) Aharon: registration on the wiki is here: http://wiki.jewishliturgy.org/Special:UserLogin
(12:22:56 PM) EfraimDF: If I can get out of the house today, I might be meeting someone to see if we can fix the transcription instructions so a normal person can follow them
(12:23:20 PM) EfraimDF: (for those of you not in the Northeast -- anyone? -- it's snowing here)
(12:23:27 PM) EfraimDF: (lots of snow)
(12:24:40 PM) EfraimDF: John Hare (Internet Sacred Texts Archive) is sending me the page images of the 1917 JPS on Mon.  He sent me an example marked up transcription file also
(12:26:22 PM) Sara_ left the room (quit: "Page closed").
(12:26:32 PM) EfraimDF: Does anyone have any questions that we can answer/address?
(12:26:37 PM) Perry_ [i=47e0d44f@gateway/web/freenode/x-zwyhkzzzymawvjeu] entered the room.
(12:27:17 PM) EfraimDF: (hi Perry)
(12:27:50 PM) EfraimDF: (if you want to, please introduce yourself)
(12:27:50 PM) PerryDane [i=47e0d44f@gateway/web/freenode/x-eztdxqtjzuvieilb] entered the room.
(12:28:25 PM) EfraimDF: (you can use /nick NEWNAME to change your name if you need to)
(12:28:51 PM) Perry_ left the room.
(12:30:00 PM) EfraimDF: shf: Would you mind answering some q's?
(12:30:17 PM) EfraimDF: (I need some alternate perspective)
(12:31:21 PM) EfraimDF: << is anyone still here?>>
(12:32:02 PM) realazthat: yes
(12:32:17 PM) realazthat: right here
(12:32:32 PM) EfraimDF: realazthat: btw, I'm transferring XSLTs to the db now
(12:32:42 PM) realazthat: ok
(12:32:51 PM) realazthat: EfraimDF: they are breaking validation
(12:32:59 PM) shf: Sure
(12:33:12 PM) realazthat: EfraimDF: and i've got identical html files producing different font results
(12:33:12 PM) yrosen: I"m here
(12:33:14 PM) yrosen: kind of...
(12:33:15 PM) PerryDane: I'm here, but arrived late.
(12:33:15 PM) EfraimDF: shf: have you seen the websites lately (opensiddur.net or wiki.jewishliturgy.org )?
(12:33:25 PM) EfraimDF: realazthat: diff browsers?
(12:33:28 PM) PerryDane: Yes.
(12:33:36 PM) Aharon: hi PerryDane: please introduce yourself
(12:34:17 PM) shf: Just opened them now
(12:35:04 PM) PerryDane: My name is Perry Dane.  I teach law at Rutgers, have an interest in jurisprudence of Jewish law, belong to two conservative synagogues, and think that this project has a lot of potential.
(12:35:05 PM) EfraimDF: shf: I'm curious as to where you think we're trying to send you
(12:35:22 PM) PerryDane: Huh?
(12:35:42 PM) EfraimDF: shf: and what you think we need to improve in explanations 
(12:36:00 PM) EfraimDF: Perry: hi and welcome
(12:36:01 PM) shf: Where you're trying to send me?
(12:36:10 PM) shf: Okay, I can look at the explanations
(12:36:12 PM) EfraimDF: shf: where you navigate to
(12:36:36 PM) realazthat: PerryDane: welcome to IRC chatting
(12:36:49 PM) realazthat: PerryDane: it can become a bit hectic here
(12:36:54 PM) shf: I believe I successfully started transcribing something
(12:37:01 PM) realazthat: PerryDane: any particular interest?
(12:37:07 PM) realazthat: PerryDane: would you like a tour?
(12:37:19 PM) PerryDane: Sure.
(12:37:20 PM) EfraimDF: shf: did you ever reach the tutorial?
(12:37:37 PM) realazthat: PerryDane: what level of technicality should I go into?
(12:37:46 PM) realazthat: PerryDane: for example
(12:38:00 PM) realazthat: PerryDane: if I say the following gibberish
(12:38:15 PM) shf: Yes
(12:38:20 PM) realazthat: PerryDane: XML,XHTML,CSS, XQuery,XSLT ...
(12:38:24 PM) shf: And I successfully started
(12:38:37 PM) shf: I left my page open for a while because I had a hard time getting back to it from the front of the site
(12:38:37 PM) realazthat: PerryDane: or just the scenic route
(12:38:40 PM) EfraimDF: shf: ok, did you know what to do once you got there?
(12:38:40 PM) PerryDane: Minimal, I guess.  I'm computer-literate, I guess, but more interested here in the substance than in the technical pieces.
(12:38:49 PM) realazthat: PerryDane: great
(12:38:51 PM) shf: i.e., finding the page I had started trasnscribing
(12:38:58 PM) shf: Yes
(12:39:12 PM) shf: Though I had concerns that I wasn't doing it quite right
(12:39:27 PM) realazthat: PerryDane: the goal of our project is to archvie the siddur text into meaningful marked up XML
(12:39:36 PM) EfraimDF: shf: explain what your concerns were about
(12:39:38 PM) chaimss [i=43555034@gateway/web/freenode/x-kordxojekeyxzvqf] entered the room.
(12:39:42 PM) EfraimDF: shf: this will help us know what to document
(12:39:46 PM) Aharon: realazthat: well, that is one goal
(12:40:03 PM) shf: I didn't understand how to use // for repeating sections
(12:40:03 PM) realazthat: PerryDane: XML is basically stuff that says what type of text each text is
(12:40:04 PM) EfraimDF: chaimss: hello, please introduce yourself (if you want to) and your interest in the project
(12:40:11 PM) realazthat: PerryDane: anyhow
(12:40:12 PM) shf: I wasn't sure about order of vowels and letters
(12:40:20 PM) Aharon: getting raw linked data accessible to jewish religious and cultural projects is a great goal of ours
(12:40:29 PM) realazthat: PerryDane: the user should then be able to choose from all sorts of options
(12:40:35 PM) EfraimDF: Aharon: "raw linked data" is a buzzword 
(12:40:35 PM) shf: like dageish and cholom and a dot on Sin or some combo like that
(12:40:52 PM) shf: And I wondered if I could type in mellel or another text editor and cut and paste
(12:40:52 PM) realazthat: PerryDane: and end up with a PDF file (of sorts) of the dream siddur
(12:41:03 PM) shf: Which would be more convenient, but I wasn't sure if that would screw things up
(12:41:09 PM) PerryDane: I had thought that the substantive goal of the project is to create a user-friendly way for groups and indviduals to "mix and match" various liturgical options, variants, etc.
(12:41:10 PM) realazthat: PerryDane: other output formats as well
(12:41:14 PM) EfraimDF: shf: I don't know the answer to that for Mellel
(12:41:27 PM) chaimss: Hi, sorry it took so long for me to sign in. My name is Chaim, I'm Azriel's friend, and I've always thought something like this would be a great idea.
(12:41:29 PM) Aharon: raw linked data, i.e, the source texts of our tradition formatted in a way that in our networked digital environemtn they can easily be shared between projects
(12:41:37 PM) EfraimDF: shf: If you copy-paste from Mellel, does it come out right?
(12:41:56 PM) realazthat: PerryDane: There are two sections of the project, Jewish Liturgy Project, and Open Siddur Project
(12:42:01 PM) chaimss: I'm only just learning how to program, so I'm not sure how much use I'll be technically, but I'm willing to do whatever else I can do to help.
(12:42:12 PM) EfraimDF: realazthat: try the xsl's now from the db
(12:42:50 PM) Aharon: chaimss: besides coding there is transcription of Seligmann Baer's Seder Avodat Yisrael. The quicker we transcribe that, the faster we can input other nuschaot
(12:43:07 PM) realazthat: PerryDane: so, yes, the goal is to be able to make a "recipe" of texts
(12:43:10 PM) Aharon: chaimss: and transcription helps you become fluent in typing in hebrew
(12:43:18 PM) realazthat: PerryDane: and contribute texts
(12:43:34 PM) realazthat: PerryDane: and share those recipes with others
(12:43:36 PM) realazthat: PerryDane: in addition
(12:43:41 PM) EfraimDF: shf: I have no idea if Mellel can output Unicode
(12:43:41 PM) realazthat: PerryDane: once in XML format
(12:43:48 PM) Aharon: realazthat: or a collection of recipes, ie., a cookbook
(12:43:58 PM) realazthat: PerryDane: it the text can be used by any project in ant way they wish
(12:44:02 PM) EfraimDF: shf: although that would be a good thing to put in the docs
(12:44:03 PM) realazthat: any*
(12:44:31 PM) shf: Okay, I can try it, but I'll need you to confirm that it's okay
(12:44:45 PM) PerryDane: As someone who's not all that interested in the technical side of this at the moment, what help could I be (if any) at this stage of the project?
(12:44:48 PM) realazthat: PerryDane: for now, we have XHTML output (not quite to PDF yet)
(12:44:54 PM) chaimss: Aharon: That definitely sounds like something I could do, time permitting
(12:44:59 PM) EfraimDF: shf: copy-paste a link to the page you're transcribing once you press save
(12:45:02 PM) realazthat: PerryDane: you can help with transcription
(12:45:02 PM) shf: EfraimDF: I'm on my page now
(12:45:05 PM) shf: http://wiki.jewishliturgy.org/Page:Seder-Avodat-Yisrael_000083.png
(12:45:12 PM) shf: But I can't figure out how to get back into edit mode
(12:45:22 PM) shf: That's what happened before and why I had to leave it open
(12:45:26 PM) shf: I feel like an idiot, but
(12:45:43 PM) realazthat: also, if your browser doesn't throw up on our initial demo: http://jewishliturgy.org/dump/jlpdemo/Ruth.htm
(12:45:48 PM) realazthat: take a look at that link
(12:45:50 PM) shf: Oh, now I see it
(12:45:51 PM) Aharon: chaimss: the first thing to do is register an account on our wiki: http://wiki.jewishliturgy.org/Special:UserLogin
(12:45:52 PM) realazthat: for some XHTML output
(12:45:58 PM) shf: "continue transcribing now"
(12:45:59 PM) EfraimDF: works
(12:46:00 PM) shf: Was that there before?
(12:46:01 PM) realazthat: which is viewable in a browser
(12:46:02 PM) shf: Okay
(12:46:07 PM) realazthat: and thus by other projects
(12:46:08 PM) shf: Wait, that's what I trasncribed manually
(12:46:12 PM) shf: Let me paste in from Mellel
(12:46:27 PM) chaimss: Aharon: Yeah, I did that a while ago.
(12:46:27 PM) PerryDane: Silly question:  Isn't there Hebrew OCR software that might save a lot of the effort of transcribing?
(12:46:37 PM) realazthat: PerryDane: good question ;)
(12:46:44 PM) Aharon: chaimss: http://wiki.jewishliturgy.org/Transcription is the main page for the transcription project
(12:46:50 PM) realazthat: PerryDane: none are known to work with nekudos
(12:46:53 PM) EfraimDF: PerryDane: The quality of Hebrew OCR - particularly in text w/vowels - is too low
(12:47:09 PM) EfraimDF: PerryDane: correcting the OCR is harder than typing from scracth
(12:47:27 PM) shf: Okay, efraim, try now
(12:47:39 PM) chaimss: Aharon: So there's a working transcription interface now? Last I heard you were still working on that.
(12:47:41 PM) Aharon: PerryDane: there is an open source OCR tool for hebrew with nikkudot called hOCR, but our tests with it weren't promising.
(12:48:06 PM) EfraimDF: I see the words "test from Mellel" in Hebrew 
(12:48:17 PM) EfraimDF: shf: All characters look right
(12:48:34 PM) EfraimDF: shf: Can you try something with a qamats qatan character?
(12:48:39 PM) Aharon: so there is an OCR (automatic transcription) tool for hebrew with nikkudot, it just doesn't work well enough
(12:48:43 PM) shf: Ok
(12:48:53 PM) EfraimDF: shf: and can you try something with a HOLAM HASER FOR VAV character
(12:48:56 PM) realazthat: http://wiki.jewishliturgy.org/Transcription <-- if you want to get started ontranscription
(12:49:03 PM) PerryDane: Are you only working with public domain materials, or are you also trying to get permisison from copyright owners of more recent versions of the siddur?
(12:49:12 PM) Aharon: yes
(12:49:20 PM) EfraimDF: PerryDane: both
(12:49:25 PM) Aharon: for sure, the former
(12:49:31 PM) EfraimDF: PerryDane: Most of our base texts will be public domain
(12:49:57 PM) PerryDane: What about various English translations?  Are they also part of the project?
(12:50:08 PM) Aharon: not only english translations
(12:50:22 PM) Aharon: but translations in any languages jews speak or have ever spoken in
(12:50:36 PM) Aharon: we have one volunteer who is working on a norwegian translation
(12:50:44 PM) chaimss: But would those have to be open source also? Or are you looking for people to type translations?
(12:51:04 PM) EfraimDF: chaimss: In the end, all core content has to be open source
(12:51:23 PM) EfraimDF: chaimss: once we have our interface up, people will be able to share their own works only among select groups
(12:51:35 PM) realazthat: to sum it up: anything we distribute *must* be open source
(12:51:36 PM) Aharon: everything contributed as text, source or translation is contributed with permissive copyright licensing
(12:51:53 PM) shf: Efraim - did it
(12:52:04 PM) Aharon: by open source, realazthat means source text shared with a free culture license
(12:52:15 PM) shf: Weirdly, the symbol did not appear correctly in Mellel (I had to use the Character pallette and search by qamats), but it looks right in the browser
(12:52:19 PM) chaimss: So even if, say, Artscroll gave their permission (I'm being hypothetical here) you couldn't use it because it's not really open source?
(12:52:19 PM) Aharon: as in a CC-BY-SA license
(12:52:20 PM) realazthat: what people do on their own, sharing between each other, can be under more restrictive terms
(12:52:40 PM) EfraimDF: chaimss: "permission" for us = open sourcing the content
(12:52:53 PM) chaimss: Oh, wow, I see
(12:53:03 PM) realazthat: chaimss: permission for what?
(12:53:21 PM) chaimss: Permission to distribute on the site via .pdf or whatever
(12:53:23 PM) EfraimDF: shf: qamats qatan looks good, for `olam, I think that may be the right holam for the word, but the wrong one for the test
(12:53:36 PM) Aharon: it kind of seems werid to think of folk "owning" the intellectual property of modern siddurim, but such is the world we live in
(12:53:44 PM) EfraimDF: shf: the difference is between b'mitz*vo*tav and `*o*lam
(12:53:53 PM) realazthat: chaimss: we could do that, but then would anyone else be able to distribute it further?
(12:54:03 PM) Aharon: the Open Siddur Project is reversing this trend by making everything in the siddur accessible again
(12:54:28 PM) EfraimDF: chaimss: simple permission to distribute doesn't benefit the commons much.  Sure, we can pass around a text, but we can't remix it
(12:54:48 PM) shf: Trying
(12:54:51 PM) chaimss: @EfraimDF: True, true
(12:54:57 PM) shf: Same problem - appears in my character panel, but not showing up in Mellel
(12:54:59 PM) shf: I tried again
(12:55:15 PM) EfraimDF: shf: you may need to use a different key on your keyboard
(12:55:28 PM) EfraimDF: shf: (I think this is going to have to be one of those things that gets corrected by computer)
(12:55:48 PM) EfraimDF: shf: (since a computer can figure out which holam to use in which context)
(12:56:46 PM) EfraimDF: shf: I think you're reinforcing that this should be one more transcription instruction out the window
(12:57:05 PM) chaimss: @EfraimDF: I know I came in late, but are you talking about whethe to use the vov or the dot?
(12:57:06 PM) shf: I just tried again
(12:57:11 PM) chaimss: whether*
(12:58:25 PM) EfraimDF: shf: they came out as the same character
(12:59:11 PM) EfraimDF: shf: I think I'm just going to dispose of that instruction and let a computer do it.  It's too hard to follow.
(12:59:38 PM) EfraimDF: chaimss: no, I'm talking about which Unicode holam character should be in what place
(12:59:46 PM) shf: This time I actually used different keys on my keyboard, not the character pallette
(12:59:47 PM) shf: Too bad
(12:59:58 PM) EfraimDF: chaimss: Unicode defines two holam characters: holam haser and holam haser for vav
(12:59:59 PM) shf: So the answer is, we can do it in Mellel?
(01:00:05 PM) EfraimDF: shf: yes
(01:00:20 PM) shf: Ok
(01:00:28 PM) EfraimDF: shf: the key is just to type what you see on screen, not what you know from memory
(01:00:55 PM) EfraimDF: chaimss: holam haser is used for all holams, including holam male (vav-holam = o sound)
(01:01:01 PM) chaimss: @EfraimDF: Oh, ok
(01:01:21 PM) EfraimDF: chaimss: holam haser for vav is used only in the case where vav-holam = vo sound)
(01:01:53 PM) shf: Of course
(01:02:14 PM) shf: Also not working for me now - how to zoom picture
(01:02:34 PM) EfraimDF: shf: hold shift and move mouse
(01:03:00 PM) shf: Hold shift and move mouse upwards
(01:03:05 PM) shf: Okay, that would be helpful right near the picture
(01:03:19 PM) EfraimDF: realazthat: any way we can do that?
(01:03:59 PM) EfraimDF: realazthat: say, closer than in the toolbox?
(01:04:20 PM) EfraimDF: shf: or is the toolbox instruction unclear?
(01:04:25 PM) Aharon: PerryDane: any other questions?
(01:04:35 PM) shf: So what's the conclusion - if I have תדום do I put vav and a dot or use the holam male key?
(01:04:56 PM) EfraimDF: most keyboards don't have a holam male key
(01:04:57 PM) shf: No, it's clear
(01:05:04 PM) EfraimDF: they both seem to do the same thing
(01:05:09 PM) EfraimDF: so, it makes no difference
(01:05:10 PM) shf: But it's not intuitive, and I was clicking on all the plusses on the page instead of going back to the guidelines
(01:05:17 PM) shf: Since I thought they'd be about the content
(01:05:18 PM) realazthat: EfraimDF: it would take work
(01:05:37 PM) shf: Is there a way to mark areas that I'm not sure about?
(01:05:54 PM) EfraimDF: in the text?
(01:06:00 PM) EfraimDF: or in the instructions?
(01:06:02 PM) shf: Like nafshi - I know ther'es no dageish in the shin, but if I weren't sure becaus of how illegible that word is, is there a way to flag it for help?
(01:06:23 PM) EfraimDF: yeah... put a note inside / / 
(01:06:39 PM) realazthat: EfraimDF: you can also put a category for the page to flag
(01:06:49 PM) EfraimDF: it will have to be proofed anyway
(01:06:59 PM) EfraimDF: shf chose one of the old PNG graphics
(01:07:04 PM) EfraimDF: which are pretty bad 
(01:07:10 PM) EfraimDF: and I've been phasing them out
(01:07:48 PM) shf: Also, I still don't get "Qamats qatan: [Yes]"
(01:07:58 PM) EfraimDF: don't worry about it -- the instruction was removed
(01:08:19 PM) EfraimDF: or, at least, it should have been
(01:08:33 PM) shf: Okay, that's from when I was last doing it - sorry
(01:08:48 PM) shf: So if I didn't have that character viewer, how is one to enter a kamatz katan?
(01:08:58 PM) shf: What if the text doesn't differentiate - are we to decide? I wasn't clear on that, either
(01:09:32 PM) EfraimDF: right -- so, that's a larger issue
(01:10:02 PM) EfraimDF: few of our texts will differentiate b/c it wasn't one of the things that was done in old typography
(01:10:50 PM) EfraimDF: ideally, the typist would just type what they see
(01:11:09 PM) EfraimDF: and a later stage would involve qamats correction, preferably with the aid of a computer
(01:11:32 PM) EfraimDF: the problem: we don't have a good algorithm to do it accurately
(01:12:39 PM) EfraimDF: problem 2: there's more than one way to decide
(01:12:51 PM) Aharon: wasn't Rafoyl going to help us with that?
(01:12:58 PM) EfraimDF: Yes, we need to get back to him 
(01:13:16 PM) Aharon: do you not have his email address?
(01:13:33 PM) EfraimDF: oh, I didn't realize "we" was "me" in this case 
(01:14:03 PM) Aharon: privilege of the lead developer when talking to other developers about development
(01:14:14 PM) EfraimDF: ;-)
(01:14:29 PM) EfraimDF: can you send me his email via email?
(01:14:43 PM) Aharon: yes
(01:16:34 PM) EfraimDF: shf/Aharon: first pass transcription should probably involve as little creative work on the part of the transcriber as possible
(01:16:52 PM) EfraimDF: shf/Aharon: so, we'll probably remove the qamats qatan instruction and pass that to a later stage
(01:17:01 PM) EfraimDF: shf/Aharon: sound reasonable?
(01:17:49 PM) Aharon: yes
(01:18:58 PM) EfraimDF: shf/Aharon: and as many differentiations as a computer can make of the complications, we let a computer do
(01:19:15 PM) EfraimDF: shf/Aharon: I think that should leave only 1 Hebrew typing complication
(01:19:27 PM) EfraimDF: shf/Aharon: which is the defective spelling of the word Yerushalayim
(01:21:53 PM) EfraimDF: shf/Aharon: I don't think it's possible to have the normalization-butchered spelling anywhere, it just looks weird
(01:22:30 PM) EfraimDF: shf/Aharon: if you don't know what I'm talking about, think of the biblical ktiv for yerushalayim
(01:22:47 PM) Aharon: i think i need to see an example
(01:23:37 PM) EfraimDF: = yod-sheva-resh-vav-dagesh-shin-shin dot-qamats-lamed-[qamats|patah]-meteg-hiriq-mem
(01:23:47 PM) EfraimDF: (note the missing yod)
(01:24:56 PM) EfraimDF: the vowel sequence [qamats|patah]-meteg-hiriq gets butchered to hiriq-[qamats|patah]-meteg or something like that, which is totally wrong
(01:25:10 PM) EfraimDF: so, if you type something like that, you need to type it as:
(01:25:17 PM) EfraimDF: [qamats|patah]-meteg-CGJ-hiriq
(01:25:29 PM) EfraimDF: where CGJ is an invisible character called the "combining grapheme joiner"
(01:25:40 PM) Aharon: huh
(01:25:58 PM) EfraimDF: exactly... it's complicated and for a stupid reason
(01:26:07 PM) Aharon: wow
(01:26:46 PM) EfraimDF: A computer can probably correct that, it will just look wrong in all the transcriptions until the computer does correct it
(01:30:02 PM) Aharon: i just want to point out that it's nearing 1:30pm EST. thanks for everyone who joined us today. we're going to stay online to chat with anyone who wants to continue
(01:31:27 PM) EfraimDF: Thanks everyone for coming in
(01:31:49 PM) EfraimDF: shf/Aharon: any ideas on how to handle that ugliness?
(01:31:54 PM) realazthat: chaimss: good morning
(01:32:15 PM) EfraimDF: shf/Aharon: that is -- what do I tell people to type?
(01:32:35 PM) Aharon: folks should transcribe what they see. make it as easy for them as possible
(01:32:57 PM) EfraimDF: Aharon: now, the problem: when they press "save" and reload it, they won't see the same thing
(01:33:18 PM) yrosen: are there any basic guidelines for transcription? e.g. "ch" vs "h", "aw/oh", etc?
(01:33:19 PM) realazthat: EfraimDF: you got the logs?
(01:33:42 PM) EfraimDF: yrosen: yes, there's a transcription guidelines document
(01:33:59 PM) Aharon: i think yrosen means, transliteration (?)
(01:34:04 PM) EfraimDF: yrosen: since this is all in Unicode Hebrew, not transliteration, those shouldn't matter
(01:34:47 PM) yrosen: yeah.,..meant transliteration
(01:35:01 PM) EfraimDF: we're hoping to have a computer do it
(01:35:08 PM) realazthat: thank g-d :)
(01:35:12 PM) yrosen: EfraimDF: oh I see. Alright then, I'll attempt soon
(01:35:14 PM) EfraimDF: and so, all of those possibilities can be supported
(01:35:33 PM) yrosen: nice
(01:35:45 PM) EfraimDF: cool -- email the list w/issues.  
(01:36:16 PM) Aharon: and transliteration not just in latin letters but cyrillic, amharic, etc.
(01:36:40 PM) EfraimDF: if you can represent it in Unicode, it's fair game for the transliterator
(01:38:40 PM) yrosen: sounds cool
(01:38:57 PM) EfraimDF: the main translit issue is the qamats qatan issue
(01:39:38 PM) EfraimDF: as far as I can tell, you cannot unambiguously decide the pronunciation of a word by its spelling w/o knowing one of: qamats=gadol or qatan *or* sheva = na or nach
(01:43:10 PM) PerryDane left the room.
(01:43:33 PM) EfraimDF: ok, so my TODO list says: simplify transcription instructions further, clarify use of out of line / /
(01:44:04 PM) PerryDane [i=47e0d44f@gateway/web/freenode/x-eqccqvgfyfnojxmi] entered the room.
(01:44:20 PM) PerryDane left the room.
(01:46:07 PM) EfraimDF: anything else I should have on it?
(01:52:53 PM) yrosen: btw, what's a good way to communicate
(01:52:55 PM) yrosen: other than IRC?
(01:53:06 PM) yrosen: like I said, I can do email (or gchat), or facebook
(01:53:30 PM) realazthat: the ML and gchat for one on one
(01:53:35 PM) EfraimDF: gchat or ml
(01:53:47 PM) EfraimDF: if it concerns everyone, ml
(01:54:43 PM) yrosen: alright
(01:54:54 PM) Aharon: thanks yrosen :)
(01:54:57 PM) shf: can you have a sign for something that's been automatically corrected
(01:55:08 PM) shf: so people know that it's supposed to be sans yod etc.
(01:55:09 PM) shf: ?
(01:55:18 PM) yrosen: Aharon: no prob :p
(01:55:25 PM) shf: have it render in a different color
(01:56:37 PM) shf: got to go
(01:56:38 PM) EfraimDF: you should only use defective spelling *if* the source has it
(01:56:39 PM) Aharon: efraimdf: goal of transcription instrucitons is for folks to get started as quickly as possible without reading the instructions
(01:56:43 PM) shf: Talk more later - thanks efraim
(01:56:48 PM) shf: and all
(01:57:12 PM) Aharon: folks doing transcription should have a handy reference for questions that arise
(01:57:24 PM) shf left the room (quit: "Page closed").
(01:57:32 PM) EfraimDF: what would you put in it?
(01:59:28 PM) Aharon: how to get started transcribing: 1. register, 2: take a page, 3: start typing, 4: need a hebrew keyboard? here's how...
(01:59:36 PM) EfraimDF: it's already there